An Exalted Hero With A Vile Judgment Of Good

[Geoff Watson]

One problem with the requirement of Good/Exalted characters to accept surrenders, is that mercy is easily abused by bad guys.

If they're losing, all the bad guys have to do is ask for mercy, and then they can have another go at the good guy later, and keep trying until they kill the good guy, or the good guy doesn't grant mercy and therefore isn't 'good' anymore.

'Mercy' was invented by evil people so they could get away with their crimes.

Geoff.

 

[focallength]

'Mercy' was invented by evil people so they could get away with their crimes.

Geoff.

Exactly every bad guy begs for mercy when they ralise that they are going to die. A good hero bases this off of tract record and deeds done. Example: I have a paladin who just recently came across a couple of elves who were commiting genocide. After failing for several rounds to subdue one elf and taking tons of damage in the process I cleaved him in two. But just before I rolled the damage dice the elf says "I surrender!". Now is a paladin doing to except the surrender from a evil being who is obviously only surrendering because hes going to die. And not because he sees the error of his ways or realises he was beaten in a fair fight? No. Did he show mercy to the numerous men, women and children he killed? No. I run my paladins (exalted or not) with a code of chivalry.

Thou shalt believe all that the Church teaches, and shalt observe all its directions. Thou shalt defend the Church. Thou shalt repect all weaknesses, and shalt constitute thyself the defender of them. Thou shalt love the country in the which thou wast born. Thou shalt not recoil before thine enemy. Thou shalt make war against the Infidel without cessation, and without mercy. Thou shalt perform scrupulously thy feudal duties, if they be not contrary to the laws of God. Thou shalt never lie, and shall remain faithful to thy pledged word. Thou shalt be generous, and give largess to everyone. Thou shalt be everywhere and always the champion of the Right and the Good against Injustice and Evil.

Thou shalt make war against the Infidel without cessation, and without mercy.

Thou shalt be everywhere and always the champion of the Right and the Good against Injustice and Evil.

Thou shalt repect all weaknesses, and shalt constitute thyself the defender of them.

Now if a enemy is surrendering then yes I can at times except it, If the enemy is being a coward and asking for mercy because hes going to die, thats conditional too but most likely not. If its already to the point where Im fighting, they been given several chances to surrender.

A paladin/knight/good guy isnt stupid. They know wehn mercy is genuine and when it is justified, just because one asks for mercy dosent mean you are obligated to show it.
(of course were talking about strict good vs. evil and not about showing mercy to the weak or helpless. Thats a whole different subject)

 

[focallength]

And the players hand book adresses this. It states that a DM shouldnt put a (paladin) in a no win situation where no matter what he does its the wrong thing. Thus having a BBEG say "I surrender" and making the paladin lose his status because he kills him. A paladin kills, detroys, smites evil. Not just the alignment but evil, if your good and your commitiing evil acts a paladin has the obligation to destroy you. Now if you can manage to convince him otherwise thats on you, if you dont...well...time to die. A paladin is judge jury and executioner, in situations where they cant realisticly take a evil doer to the authorities (which is most of the time ).They have a huge burden and huge consequences if they abuse this power. Of course I say Paladin but this can apply to any good aligned person.

 

[twofalls]

A paladin is judge jury and executioner, in situations where they cant realisticly take a evil doer to the authorities (which is most of the time ).They have a huge burden and huge consequences if they abuse this power. Of course I say Paladin but this can apply to any good aligned person.

I flat don't agree with this statement and it wouldn't fly in my game. Then again, the beauty of it is that if it works in your game then whose to say I'm right and you are wrong. We just disagree.

 

[moritheil]

I flat don't agree with this statement and it wouldn't fly in my game. Then again, the beauty of it is that if it works in your game then whose to say I'm right and you are wrong. We just disagree.

Unless your paladin's patron is someone with Mercy in their portfolio (a la Ilmater in FR), that paladin should be more like a killing machine than a romanticized crusading knight. The official source material is somewhat confused on this issue, mostly due to the authors not understanding the differences between the Almighty of real life religion and the individual doctrines of, say, Helm in FR, who has little use for mercy and is far more concerned with punishing miscreants.

 

[focallength]

How a paladin reacts is totally based off of his diety or lack of one. A paladin of Ilmate (which is what Im playing) will still smite evil and does not have to accept mercy or give it, theyre more likely too, but again it comes down to situations.

 

[Bartmanhomer]

Bartmanhomer, Guardianlurker wasn't making a value statement about you in this thread, so I'm unclear on what you are feeling sorry about. No insult was offered.

Oh. My bad.

Anyway, if a good character break a law for a good "heroic" reason. Wouldn't that consider an anti-hero?

 

[dungeon blaster]

'Mercy' was invented by evil people so they could get away with their crimes.

Geoff.

Funny. I can imagine an evil tyrant saying that as an excuse for his lack of mercy.

I think we are confusing law and good here. Bringing bad guys to the authorities is a lawful act, not a good act. What if the authorities were evil?

On a different note, I get annoyed by the idea that an evil act is an evil act, regardless of the outcome. Let's say you had to lie to someone in order to save the world from being destroyed. Now, you could reference the DMG, which says you shouldn't place an exalted character in this position. But then what's the point of having a code if it is never put to the test or called into question? But, going along with the idea that evil is evil, one could argue that an exalted character must sometimes show he is exalted through the greatest sacrifice...his exalted status. Therefore, what he did was an incredibly good act (sacrificing his own soul/exalted status) and an evil act (the act itself). Let's just hope those good gods truly are forgiving.

Paladins are interesting because they don't neccesarily serve a god. A paladin is a servant of Good more than a servant of gods. Being lawful good means that they should obey by the laws whenever possible, as long as those laws obey the principles of Good. Otherwise there would be a conflict of Lawful and Good. The PHB mentions "legitmate authority", but gives no clue as to what that means. Is Iuz "legitimate authority" in the Empire of Iuz? I think this means legitimate in the eyes of "Good", not legitimate in the political sense. Does a paladin have to accept surrender? Probably, because she/he must "act with honor". At the same time the code REQUIRES that he punish those who threaten or harm innocents. So, let's pose a situation here:

Ahlana the paladin traveling through the Empire of Iuz finds an Orc (soldier of the Empire) killing some innocents. The orc, knowing Ahlana is more than its match, surrenders. Does Ahlana kill the Orc? Does she turn it over to the Empire? Is turning it over to its own superiors even a punishment?

The DMG's answer is probably "don't put the paladin in this situation in the first place". That, IMO, is a lame-*ss cop-out by designers who didn't want to actually think this through.

 

[Bartmanhomer]

Don't you think a hero risking his or her life is somehow sad?

 

[the Jester]

In my opinion, if there is any doubt in your mind as the dm about an action, it's enough for a character to lose exalted status.