An Examination of Differences between Editions

[MerricB]

Granted I'm talking from a Moldvay viewpoint, but I'm pretty sure that holds at least through Mentzer's Basic, Expert, & Companion sets.

Please, when I talk about BECM D&D, I include Master. Also in RC D&D. Moldvay is simpler, sure, but Mentzer complicated it greatly.

 

[Imaro]

Please, when I talk about BECM D&D, I include Master. Also in RC D&D. Moldvay is simpler, sure, but Mentzer complicated it greatly.

In RC both Weapon Mastery and General skills have a paragraph each stating they are optional and totally under DM control. Skills aren't optional in D&D 3.x a rogue is dependant upon them for nearly all his abilities. Feats aren't optional because the fighter is dependant upon them as a class.

 

[MerricB]

Nitpick: Everything was optional in 1e. That was made quite clear in the 1e ruleset.

Err... no.

"most of what is found herein is essential to the campaign, and those sections which are not - such as subclasses of characters, psionics and similar material - are clearly labeled as optional for inclusion." - AD&D PH page 6.

There's also a lot of discussion about how games should be uniform as to the rules used. See also DMG page 7. Gygax expanded upon this in Dragon Magazine, going so far to say if you don't use the rules, you're not playing AD&D. (D&D was the set for tinkering; AD&D grew out of the fact that there were so many different versions of D&D being played - you couldn't take a PC from one game to another, everything would be different!).

"And while there are no optionals for the major systems of ADVANCED D&D (for uniformity of rules and procedures from game to game, campagin to campaign, is stressed), there are plenty of areas where your own creativity and imagination are not bounded by the parameters of the game system." - AD&D DMG 9

In the PHB, the only optional material are Psionics (appendix i), and Bards (appendix ii). They're clearly marked as optional; nothing else is.

In the DMG, the DM has the choice of what ability score generation system is used (page 11). Secondary skills are optional.

The DMG (in the Afterword) exhorts the DM to "hew the line with respect to conformity to major systems and uniformity of play in general". The intent of that afterword is to allow the DM to override bits of the rulebook that are obviously written by Gary on a bad day. But the rules aren't optional by default.

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

In RC both Weapon Mastery and General skills have a paragraph each stating they are optional and totally under DM control. Skills aren't optional in D&D 3.x a rogue is dependant upon them for nearly all his abilities. Feats aren't optional because the fighter is dependant upon them as a class.

True enough.

3e is more involved in character creation than earlier editions; however, all the classes have basic starting packages for PCs, which take most of the choices away. Thus reducing the complexity of choice down to something more reminiscient of earlier editions.

Actually - they also have predone equipment.

Cheers!

 

[Imaro]

True enough.

3e is more involved in character creation than earlier editions; however, all the classes have basic starting packages for PCs, which take most of the choices away. Thus reducing the complexity of choice down to something more reminiscient of earlier editions.

Actually - they also have predone equipment.

Cheers!

Which leads me back to C&C...if I'm going to pre-select everything for my players then why not just play a true classed based game? Right now it's almost my perfect pick-up game as well as for campaign play, and if the CKG includes either alternate class abilities or better yet a true system to build classes I will be totally satisfied.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Err... no.

If I wasn't at work, I would quote (again) the section in the DMG that explicitly states that everything is optional. I'll have it for you tomorrow, if need be.

Also, I have a very hard time seeing 1e weapon proficiencies as being equivilent to feats, either in scope or complexity.


RC

 

[MerricB]

If I wasn't at work, I would quote (again) the section in the DMG that explicitly states that everything is optional. I'll have it for you tomorrow, if need be.

Also, I have a very hard time seeing 1e weapon proficiencies as being equivilent to feats, either in scope or complexity.

They're not - but they are another decision that needs to be made.

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

Which leads me back to C&C...if I'm going to pre-select everything for my players then why not just play a true classed based game?

Because C&C doesn't get past basic character creation.

3E allows basic character creation (albeit a little more involved than 1e, mainly because the bonuses are written on the character sheet), and also more advanced character creation for experienced players.

Cheers!

 

[Imaro]

Because C&C doesn't get past basic character creation.

3E allows basic character creation (albeit a little more involved than 1e, mainly because the bonuses are written on the character sheet), and also more advanced character creation for experienced players.

Cheers!

But the complexity can be added as the DM/CKG sees fit. They've already got optional rules on their website for both skills and multi-classing, and I'm sure the CKG will include even more options. But the base game, by RAW is simpler by far to play and run compared to D&D 3.x. I guess I feel as if, at a certain point why even be classed based if your complexity level is rivaling a point-based system, and 3.x is really toeing that line. I find games like Stormbringer 5th ed., BRP, and Runequest to be simpler than D&D now, while before IMHO, that wasn't the case.

 

[Raven Crowking]

They're not - but they are another decision that needs to be made.

Complexity is more than the number of decisions -- the complexity of those decisions, and how far-reaching the consequences of a good or bad decision are, determine complexity far more than a simple numeric count of factors.