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An examination of player agency

I'm not sure if this quite aligns with what @pemerton meant, but my immediate contrast in my head is between a) OSR style play that re-centers "treasure = XP" in a very classic way as a goal of play vs b) plotted narrative adventure time where the GM is using milestone xp. In the former, the players know that finding treasure means they advance, so they can use the mechanics of the game to find places where treasure exists, try their best to get it out, and prosper.

In b), the players have no choice but to follow along with the GM's plot dangles if they want to get anywhere. What leads to advancement? Who knows! The GM may have stuff written down somewhere, or like when I ran Curse of Strahd that way it was like "when they finish X marker, give them a level."

I think in the second option, player agency is rather curtailed in the aim of "providing a narratively interesting progression" and "hitting plot beats without having to rebalance encounters" or whatever

For me, the disconnect is/was that some games that I play are neither 'a' nor 'b'. Some don't even use XP or levels in the way that D&D does.

As such, they don't map very well to that dichotomy or the ideas being discussed. However, they are still identifiably games with player agency.
 

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For me, the disconnect is/was that some games that I play are neither 'a' nor 'b'. Some don't even use XP or levels in the way that D&D does.

As such, they don't map very well to that dichotomy or the ideas being discussed. However, they are still identifiably games with player agency.

Sure, that was just an immediate and relatively wide spread example to try and illustrate the point at hand.
 

I think what you're describing is fleshing out what, in my formulation, is called the reliability of the rules. Or, more fully, the reliability of the rules to achieve your known goals.
I think that's right.

I would describe the situation you present like this. The 'world' in an rpg is simply an imagined boardstate. It is a common feature of many rpgs that the only participant who is allowed to change the 'world' (ie the boardstate) is the GM. It is therefore self evident that any goals requiring a change in 'the world' can only be done by the GM - and so only the GM has agency to achieve them.
Up to this point, I want to say that the GM is the only one with authority to make them. But I want to suspend - at this stage - the judgement as to whether other participants can use their authority to guide or control the GM's exercise of the GM's authority.

What happens in practice is that the sometimes the GM changes the boardstate in accordance with my wishes and then claims I exerted the agency. This is the heart of illusionism. Part of the same illusion is GMs who declare the boardstate independent of them, autonomous, with it's own causal and motive power. It's alive on its own. Utter nonsense when examined, and yet repeated again and again on these boards with complete seriousness.
I agree that this is something that happens often in practice.

But I don't think it covers the field. If there are rules (formal or informal) that govern the GM's exercise of their authority over the board state, and if I - a player - can use my authority to enliven one or more of those rules, then I can exercise control over the board state even though I don't have authority over it.

(A side note: I think it may be because I work in law and legal theory that I emphasise this point. Because part of one ideal of the rule of law (not the only way of making sense of that ideal) is that while it is the judge who has the authority to pronounce, a litigant is nevertheless able to exercise their agency by activating the judge, because (i) the judge is bound by law, and thus (ii) activating them isn't just like opening Pandora's box, but (iii) is actually a way of generating effects that the litigant wishes to achieve but does not themself have the authority to bring about. Contrast, say, dobbing on a classmate to a teacher, which is much less reliable as a mode of exercising agency because the teacher's response is not very strongly rule-bound, making this much more of a Pandora's box situation.)

It is my thinking along these lines that makes me especially sensitive to claims that the GM is never bound by any rules. And this is also why, a bit like a broken record, I keep going back to Gygax on successful adventures. Because he clearly is assuming that the GM is bound by rules (and there are more illustrations of that assumption in his DMG, although perhaps a bit more opaque): because otherwise, none of the advice that he gives would make any sense at all!

And as I already alluded to, I think there is value in making it clear that Gygax excepted the GM was rule bound, because of the cultural and historical legacy. Of course Gygax never quite comes out and states the rules - this is a well-known gap in early RPG books - and some of the rules are rather informal. But they're nevertheless not hard to work out.

And while I'm rambling on about these things, here's another idea that - for me - is closely related to all of the above (and also to my comment that, at a certain degree of skill differential, the weak player may barely count as playing the game at all). And it also relates to a comment on an old RPG discussion site that you'd be pretty familiar with I think, that some RPGing texts tend to recycle the author's play experience as material for new players' own play. Anyway, here's the idea:

The original Monster Manual is full of monsters that make no sense, and are frequently regarded as "gotchas": mimics, trappers, lurkers above, piercers, rot grubs, ear seekers, and the various oozes and moulds are the stand-outs. I have a conjecture about these monsters, though. In the context of an evolving culture of play, at an actual table among actual participants who play together, the rules and heuristics that govern the way the GM exercises authority over the shared fiction can evolve over time in a way that is (at least roughly/loosely) knowable to all the participants. And in this context, those bonkers monsters don't have to be "gotchas": they are elements developed and deployed over time as part of a game play among the participants that becomes ever more intricate, ever more self-referential (like the "in jokes" and so on that become part of a group's culture), and that reflects the development of shared tropes, expectations, etc.

As well as monsters, the same thing can happen with traps and tricks: eg initially pit traps are a reasonable thing, but then over time it becomes acceptable, as part of a challenge for these players at this table, to include pit traps which open when the floor 5' in front of them is poked. Just as rot grubs step up the challenge of searching dead bodies, and ear seekers step up the challenge of listening at doors, so the baroque pit traps step up the challenge of prodding with poles.

How much fun this is overall is obviously going to vary with the participants, and likewise whether it is still fun when computer games can do at least some of it a lot better. And how many sessions it can sustain for an individual player is also going to vary, but probably be finite - at a certain point, say when you can get through ToH or some analogue thereof, you've effectively beaten this particular game.

When Gygax talks about the importance of letting knew players learn the game themselves, and not have it spoiled by old hands; and that this needs to happen in a dungeon suitable for new players; I think he (at least in part) has this sort of thing in mind. That is, both (1) a player can't just begin the game in a dungeon full of the most baroque and gonzo elements and be expected to meaningfully exercise their agency, because no reasonable person is going to think of mimics and ear seekers and 10'-pole-defeating pit traps a priori - these need to be gradually learned and internalised as part of the table's heuristics and informal rules; and (2) being taught those rules by the old hands, rather than picking them up via the play experience, is like being told the cheat codes for the game from the outset - it robs the experience of its fun.

Assuming what I've said above is at least in the right ballpark for how the game got going, it then shows how ridiculous certain things are which have nevertheless gone on to be treated as quite standard. First is the treatment of the MM as a mere menu for GMs to choose from, with no discussion of how to use the different elements inside it to build a shared play experience. Second, perhaps, is the presentation of an MM with those baroque/gonzo creatures at all, as opposed to a book (comparable, say, to the BW Monster Burner or Magic Burner) that tells a GM how to gradually increase the complexity of their game, riffing on the actual play experience at the table and the informal rules and heuristics that have developed. And this would also extend to tricks and traps.

Third, the idea that things like the MM, and dungeon design more generally, should be understood through some sort of "naturalistic" paradigm, rather than through the idea of emergent local rules and heuristics that step up the challenge to players over time, while still permitting them to use their agency (because they grasp the rules and heuristics, having been participants in the play, or at least in the local culture, that saw them emerge).

This has been a long series of paragraphs, covering quite a bit of territory. But I think it relates to the theme of agency by trying to identify the way in which certain approaches to RPGing, which have departed in fundamental ways from the original D&D experience even while retaining some surface-level resemblances, have really contributed to a reduction in expectations and experiences of agency in play.

Earlier, another poster asked why debates about agency are so frequent. My answer is because the predominant rpg playstyle is to give the GM all the agency, while denying that this is the case.
I agree with this. And to build on what I've said just above, I think there are key features that explain why there is little player agency:

*A strong commitment to the GM not being rule-bound;

*A reinforcement of that commitment that arises from an apparent hostility to the reality and importance of informal norms - expectations, heuristics, procedures, informal rules, etc;

*A corresponding insistence that the only constraint on the GM is their own conception of what makes sense in the fiction.​

It might be a little bit of an oversimplification that it all went wrong when the MM was published in the mode of a bestiary rather than a tool for playing games - but for the reasons I've given above, I don't think that is entirely incorrect either.

I played AD&D with friends (but no GM) and used the random dungeon generator and random encounter tables by dungeon level, random treasure tables. The game worked totally fine. We had reliable processes to generate what we needed. We could assess our ammo, spells, hit points and make judgements whether to move forward another room based on what we might encounter and what we might gain. All a GM would have done in this game is introduce unreliability into all these processes and overwritten our agency with their own!
I think there is more to be said about the possible role of the GM, that is positive - consistently with what I've said above, a GM can introduce an element of intricacy into the puzzle-solving aspect of dungeon play which need not be agency defeating provided the GM is bound in knowable ways that can become known via known ways.

And too be clear: "knowable ways that can become known via known ways" is a deliberate choice of words, modelled on the basic structure of the successful adventure. Eg the first time the GM includes some new baroque trick or trap or creature, it has to bind the GM - via their notes, write-up etc - but may not be known to the players - part of the puzzle is coming to know how the new thing works. But the ways of coming to know that must be known, or else it's just arbitrary and blind decision-making, as would be experienced by neophyte players thrown in at the deep end. The known ways in classic D&D include (say) using torches to test for fire vulnerability, using poles and ropes and pitons intelligently, etc.

When I GMed a session of White Plume Mountain a few years ago, the players - who are all RPGing old hands, and so familiar with the basic D&D tropes - found themselves surprised by some tricks, but they worked out solutions to some of them. I'm not going to say that it was the highlight of my RPGing experiences! But it was not un-agential play, because the puzzles were beatable because the ways in which the GM (ie me) was bound in respect of them were also knowable.

I would contrast this with some of my nadir experiences GMing RM, where the only heuristics available were "make a naturalistic decision", and these generated almost no constraints at all, and so there were not knowable ways in which I was bound, which could come to be known to the players via known ways. There were two such moments that I still remember, which really were low agency RPGing, and disappointing both for me as GM and the players. Thankfully after the second time I was able to develop new and better informal rules and heuristics, that the players also participated in making part of our game play, and subsequent experiences were much better.

Anyway, this has been a long reply but I hope not too tedious!
 
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Hi @pemerton

Thanks again for the lengthy reply.

This will likely be a short response! The core of your post seems to be that: From the definition "player agency is a function of rules the players know and can rely on to achieve known goals" it does not follow that a game cannot have rules that are unknown.

This is something I completely agree with! A new 'monster' is a discrete package of unknown rules. But fighting it happens within a framework of known rules - ranges, damage and injury effects, lines of sight and movement rates, rounds or turns, etc - depending on the specifics of the game system.

Puzzling out the unknown rules from within the framework of known and reliable ones (and so overcoming the challenge they represent) is the heart of gamist play.

And, I think you're right about how sensitive this type of play is to the evolution in individual group understanding, and how poorly the evolution of longer-term gamist campaigns has (historically) been explained across rpgs.
 

Hi @pemerton

Thanks for clarifying. Yes, I had misunderstood the direction of your previous post! And largely I agree with what you say.

So I think what you're describing is fleshing out what, in my formulation, is called the reliability of the rules. Or, more fully, the reliability of the rules to achieve your known goals.

I would describe the situation you present like this. The 'world' in an rpg is simply an imagined boardstate.
That's one way to envision it, not the only way. Also, that term "boardstate" comes from boardgames and some CCGs, so it needs clear definition as it applies to ttrpgs.
It is a common feature of many rpgs that the only participant who is allowed to change the 'world' (ie the boardstate) is the GM.
Games dominated by GM Fiat are less about ttrpg rules and more about group playstyle. Some groups allow for PCs to reshape the setting via their actions, while others depend on the GM affect setting changes. Again, depends on the group.
It is therefore self evident that any goals requiring a change in 'the world' can only be done by the GM - and so only the GM has agency to achieve them.
This makes sense, again, with a group that depends on the GM to create setting change. I've been the GM in groups like that and the cause was most of the players in those groups had no interest in their PCs having goals that changed the setting. All players don't have the same playstyles and different playstyles means different victory conditions.
What happens in practice is that the sometimes the GM changes the boardstate in accordance with my wishes and then claims I exerted the agency. This is the heart of illusionism.
This statement makes zero sense.
Part of the same illusion is GMs who declare the boardstate independent of them, autonomous, with it's own causal and motive power. It's alive on its own. Utter nonsense when examined, and yet repeated again and again on these boards with complete seriousness. And the reason is to give GMs a fig leaf to pretend it isn't their agency changing the board.
"Living Campaigns" have existed in the ttrpg hobby for at least forty years. You can find them easily online with a simple search of "living campaigns". There's even a Wikipedia page for them. I've played in a few temporarily so I have actual experiences with campaigns where I can perform actions with my PC that change the campaign setting. So, it isn't utter nonsense. What IS utter nonsense is dismissing the play experiences of others just to make a point.
Earlier, another poster asked why debates about agency are so frequent. My answer is because the predominant rpg playstyle is to give the GM all the agency, while denying that this is the case.
Many ttrpgs allow GMs "Fiat", which enables the GM to make changes to rules or setting. But, GM Fiat does not allow a GM to make decisions for the players and their characters. That falls under Player Agency. It seems like you're confusing the parameters of the two concepts (GM Fiat and Player Agency).
I played AD&D with friends (but no GM) and used the random dungeon generator and random encounter tables by dungeon level, random treasure tables. The game worked totally fine. We had reliable processes to generate what we needed. We could assess our ammo, spells, hit points and make judgements whether to move forward another room based on what we might encounter and what we might gain. All a GM would have done in this game is introduce unreliability into all these processes and overwritten our agency with their own!
What's correct is, playing ttrpgs can be fun with or without a GM. Also, you're assuming random tables are "reliable processes" but often those tables can generate results that make no sense for a given scene, hence designers advising GMs to ignore random results to maintain setting or scene consistency.

Your arguement, especially that last sentence, shows you have an anti-GM bias that's clearly clouding your logic here.
 
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As the conversation has progressed, I feel that it makes more sense to me. I appreciate that an actual discussion is taking place.

In regards, to the topic, I ponder if how the rules are structured and expressed can create something akin to "unknown rules" via which player agency is removed.

Anecdotally and during times when I have taught people how to play various rpgs, a reoccurring stumbling block for teaching people modern (i.e. 4th and 5th Edition) D&D is that how the rules say the in-game world works is not intuitive to how someone unfamiliar with D&D would assume that something ought to work.

One example is that it is difficult to use in-game information that a character (and by proxy the player) perceives to determine the capabilities of a foe. In a world where a Gnome baking cookies in a tree may have the same strength score as the hulking Orc warrior, what information is available from which a player can assess the situation and make a meaningful choice?

What does it mean in-game that an ooze has 30 charisma? Is it gurgling and undulating in an especially convincing or an especially attractive way? Most often, it means nothing -or at least nothing that a character living in that world can see. As such, the player who is trying to make decisions through that character has a more difficult time answering the question "what do you do?"

Sometimes, when a new players does what they think they should do, the game says they are wrong or that they fail, but for reasons that are unclear.

For example, it is reasonable that the first instinct when facing a Beholder would be to target the huge eye in the center of it (and I have witnessed a lot of newer players having that very thought). However, even if the DM allows it via an adhoc decision that technically breaks the rules of the game, the effect is most likely the same as attacking any other monster: it loses some HP. That's most likely not what the new player expected; that Chekhov's Eyeball was unimportant is unintuitive.

From that perspective, what @pemerton was talking about in regards to Gygax instructing new players how to play and how to interact with the game world makes sense.

I haven't noticed the same stumbling blocks when introducing games other than modern D&D to people -at least not nearly as often.

So, can unintuitive rules structure and unintuitive results born from a game's resolution methods remove player agency by making the value of choices less knowable?
 

can unintuitive rules structure and unintuitive results born from a game's resolution methods remove player agency by making the value of choices less knowable?
I think this gets close to the distinction that @chaochou has drawn between agency and skill. Nevertheless, I think the answer to your question is yes - at least, it can take quite a while to learn the non-intuitive relationships between fiction and mechanical outcomes of the sort you point to, and while that is not known a lot of action declarations can be rather "blind" ones.

I remember years ago (like maybe 10+ years) a discussion on these boards, or maybe some other RPG site, about the utility of the explanation "In a RPG you can do anything". Back then the example being discussed was 3E D&D, I think - but I remember making a point a bit like your beholder one - that players might take that slogan seriously, act on it, and declare actions for their PCs that might seem sensible just thinking about the fiction but that are actually hopeless given the mechanical resolution process that will be applied.
 

Anecdotally and during times when I have taught people how to play various rpgs, a reoccurring stumbling block for teaching people modern (i.e. 4th and 5th Edition) D&D is that how the rules say the in-game world works is not intuitive to how someone unfamiliar with D&D would assume that something ought to work.

One thing I thought was really interesting when I gave 4e a shot with some experienced folks was how baked in to the game the Monster Knowledge checks to get explicit details of the monster's stat block are. I think that open check where the player can know the rules for it (appropriate skill, DC by level, scaling, etc); and the outcomes (basic/partial/full or whatever the nomenclature is) allows for more agency around the specific sort of "combat as engaging puzzle encounter" 4e was trying for.
 

Well, we've established in this hobby that "System Matters". What is the system?

It isn't just game rules. It isn't just what the players want to do. It even isn't what the GM rules. SYSTEM is a combination of all three as they happen live during play, where the rules or what the GM ruled or what the players wanted SHIFTS in a different direction, sometimes without the group noticing.

The shift was just the natural motion of organic SYSTEM moving where it had to go in order to better facilitate gameplay. There's some deep psychological theory involved in ttrpgs that I've always found engaging. I'd also point out that some gamers don't really care about system as, for them, the fundamental purpose of playing games is to have fun a purely social experience independent of the game itself.
 
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One thing I thought was really interesting when I gave 4e a shot with some experienced folks was how baked in to the game the Monster Knowledge checks to get explicit details of the monster's stat block are. I think that open check where the player can know the rules for it (appropriate skill, DC by level, scaling, etc); and the outcomes (basic/partial/full or whatever the nomenclature is) allows for more agency around the specific sort of "combat as engaging puzzle encounter" 4e was trying for.

In the past, I have been very critical of 4E. There are still things about it that bug me, but there are also things that it did well.

My best experiences with 4E came from
1) throwing out the advertised idea of "ze game will remain ze same" and 2) largely ignoring a lot of "official" advice about how to run the game.

Chess and checkers both use the same board, but they use different pieces that are designed to do different things.

I had less fun when I was trying to play a game that I thought was a different game because -both as a player and a DM- I was unable to understand why my choices were not leading to the results that I wanted.
 

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