D&D 4E An in depth rules discussion on the mechanical problems and breakthroughs of 4e

[mmu1]

1. The evening out of the BAB and level bonuses

I was going to say that it probably won't take long before people realize their characters are just running on a treadmill and get bored, but then I thought of all the MMOs and "action RPGs" in which you do just that, and I'm no longer so sure... It sill sucks, though.

 

[Henry]

3E had at-will spells. They were called wands.

I have to disagree; anything that costs a king's ransom to purchase that gets used up inside of 10 combats doesn't compare favorably to having an ability that can be used at any time all day long. The bad thing about 3e Wands is that you can't recharge them by the rules - they're like purchasing a brand-new car, and then having to throw it away when you use up the first tank of gasoline. At least in 1e, most wands had a recharge facility that wasn't too costly, and the effects were interesting enough to make them desirable.

 

[PeterWeller]

I was going to say that it probably won't take long before people realize their characters are just running on a treadmill and get bored, but then I thought of all the MMOs and "action RPGs" in which you do just that, and I'm no longer so sure... It sill sucks, though.

What are you even trying to say? Are you insinuating there wasn't a level treadmill in OD&D, BECMI, 1E, 2E, 3E, or any other level based system out there? Or are you saying that evening out power progression turns the system into a treadmill? Explain that, please. Also, make sure to take into account that many MMOs don't have a unified power progression.

Seriously, you can wrap it up however you want, and it doesn't matter; the "waah, D&D has become WoW" argument is stupid.

 

[small pumpkin man]

7. Endless magical at-will attacks, should a wizard be able to magic missile all day?

I see this is not a problem for everybody.

Let me explain my rationalization.
A wizard should be able to shoot just like a fighter should be able to swing a weapon. No it should be compared to just like a archer can shoot his bow. A wizard can shoot at long range infinitely (knocking down castles and building given enough time). An archer could never do that because he would never be able to produce enough arrows. I fighter couldn't do it because he would break his weapon before decimating the building.

Except of course by the rules the Fighter can do that, there are no rules in the game for weapons taking damage, or for getting tired when hitting something, but most DMs I've played under will say "you can't do that anymore" after a while, and there's no reason not to apply that to casters.

Another spellcaster concept that I enjoy is the concept of caster fatigue. The more they cast the more "tired" they eventually get and then after have an extended rest they get start fresh again.

I don't think casting infinite MMs will do all that much in actual play but conceptually it is a little unnerving.

Yes, in actual play, the Wizard will use dailies and encounter powers and need a bit of a nap. Except for players who are specifically reveling in the new system, most casters will play exactly like that. As has been pointed out, this is a large part of the design of 4e, "who cares how it reads, how does it play?".

 

[silentounce]

You are correct. However, I have a feeling they intend to resolve these issues by adding more classes, such as an Arcane Defender, or a Swordmage.

So, we have to buy a splat book to play against stereotype? That's wonderful!

the "waah, D&D has become WoW" argument is stupid.

Why?
Because you don't agree with it? No, seriously, why is that a stupid argument?

I think it happens to be more true than false. Maybe not WoW, specifically. But there is definitely a more video gamey feel to the system.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Are you insinuating there wasn't a level treadmill in OD&D, BECMI, 1E, 2E, 3E, or any other level based system out there? Or are you saying that evening out power progression turns the system into a treadmill?

Wasn't part of the idea of 4e to make it 'play the same' at heroic, paragon, and epic levels? In earlier editions, while the power of foes obviously increased as you went up in levels, the character of the conflicts changed. Higher level enemies weren't just higher stats, they had more and more varied abilities. Similarly, character classes progressed differently. A class that seemed to dominate at low levels might be suplanted by another at higher levels, depending upon the situations of the campaign. These were all things that were legitimately criticized, but, yes, the solution to those criticisms is a system that gives something of that 'treadmill' impression. Personally, I'll reserve judgement on whether that impression is borne out until I've played through at least paragon level, though.

 

[Cadfan]

So, we have to buy a splat book to play against stereotype? That's wonderful!

It is, actually. The core books should cater to the core archetypes. If you want to be something esoteric, you need the Book of Esoteric Fantasy.

I'll leave the "D&D is like an MMORPG now!" argument alone. Its beneath me.

 

[Ahglock]

I was going to say that it probably won't take long before people realize their characters are just running on a treadmill and get bored, but then I thought of all the MMOs and "action RPGs" in which you do just that, and I'm no longer so sure... It sill sucks, though.

I see positives and negatives to this. In fights yeah, I suspect they will all start to feel the same, you need an X to hit at low levels, you need an X to hit at high levels, the fight lasts 6-9 rounds at low levels it lasts 6-9 rounds at high levels.

On the other hand I am looking forward to it for skills, everyone improving in stealth for example means everyone can actually participate in the sneaking part of the game. When you jump at low levels you jump 5 feet, when you jump at high levels its 30 feet. So basically the standard improvement in skills allows more group play and since it frequently is tested against a static DC and not the enemy it will feel like there is improvement.

And also just because the party is level 10 I wont be making all the enemies level 10. Its good to fight weak things you used to find challenging so you can see how you have improved.

I see some problems with 4e, this isn't too big of a one to me.

 

[small pumpkin man]

Wasn't part of the idea of 4e to make it 'play the same' at heroic, paragon, and epic levels? .

No. the math is supposed to be the same, you're supposed to hit about half the time and kill a "normal" level equivelent creature in the the same amount of hits, but the actual abilities characters and monsters have is supposed to be different.

 

[Cadfan]

I see positives and negatives to this. In fights yeah, I suspect they will all start to feel the same, you need an X to hit at low levels, you need an X to hit at high levels, the fight lasts 6-9 rounds at low levels it lasts 6-9 rounds at high levels.

At level 1, you have one per encounter ability from your class, and one daily ability from your class. At level 10, you have three of each, plus three utility powers that may be either encounter or daily. Your allies have had a similar growth in options, and many of your options synergize with theirs.

You might be hitting on the same number, but that doesn't mean the play experience is the same.