D&D 5E An Odd Rules Issue with Suggestion

[cmad1977]

Giving the goblin a second save is the only issue.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Keep in mind also Suggestion is not Dominate. The bard can suggest throwing the sword back is the best course of action. The goblin could hand-off the sword to his comrade, yelling at him to throw it back. The non-effected comrade could keep running with it, creating a comical argument between the two.

 

[iserith]

How would you have ruled this?

The goblin under the effects of the suggestion spell refuses to let go of the sword as he plans to throw it back as per the caster's request. On his turn, the goblin throws it back 20 to 60 ft. to the dismay of his comrade at which point the undead make a play for the sword.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

How exactly was the whole sword-relay thing making them faster? If it was a matter of encumbrance, wouldn't it have made more sense for them to be carrying it between them?

Yeah I'm trying to figure this out. I think it's unintentional metagaming producing weirdness. It requires that the goblins are on different initiatives and the one with sword is initially behind the other one, but higher on initiative. So say Goblin A is 10ft from the PCs and has an initiative of 15 and Goblin B is 40ft away and has initiative of 10. Goblin A moves 60ft so is at 70. Goblin B moves 30ft, takes the sword, then moves 30ft, so is at 100ft. Goblin A moves 30ft, takes the sword and moves 30ft more, so is at 130ft. And so on. This maxmizes the distance the sword is from the PCs at any given point. Realistic? No. Brain-breaking? Slightly. Tactically smart in a boardgame kind of way? Definitely.

I would just have not done the hand off more than once myself, maybe not at all.

Ruling-wise the Suggestion landed and Goblins are cowardly and panicky beings so I wouldn't have let the other Goblin take it without a struggle. It feels like a continuation of metagaming and negates a 3rd level spell in a way that feels a bit cheap to me.

 

[Oofta]

First, an on-the-fly-ruling doesn't have to be perfect.

I think your ruling was okay, even if I hadn't ruled that way. I am a bit confused as to how handing off the sword was getting it anywhere faster, but I guess that's not really the point (I know turns can make things a bit wonky).

But suggestion in general one is a hard one to rule on.

• Would not handing off the sword put the goblin in immediate danger? After all if the undead are after the sword, a cowardly goblin might think their best chance of survival was to get rid of the sword and not getting rid of it was endangering them.
• How reasonable was the suggestion? How important was the sword to the goblins? If throwing the sword back means effectively leaving it behind then the suggestion may not have worked at all.

I would be more inclined to rule in favor of the player if they had worded it differently (and might give the player some feedback on wording). Basically something like "If you throw the sword away, you get away! Run!" or "Throw the sword to the side, you can always sneak back later to get it!"

But like I said, suggestion is almost never simple so I tend to work with my players to come up with something that works.

 

[Quartz]

3. Bard casts Suggestion on the goblin carrying the sword. Suggests that the only way the goblin will survive is if he throws the sword back. Goblin fails saving throw, and I feel this is a perfectly legitimate suggestion.

Does the goblin have an Action available at this point? If so, it should have thrown the sword, obviating the problem.

4. Second goblin goes before the Suggested Goblin. Second goblin goes past the Suggested Goblin, taking the sword as they have done in the past.

No problem here. The first goblin no longer has to throw the sword so no big deal.

It feels like a continuation of metagaming and negates a 3rd level spell in a way that feels a bit cheap to me.

It was the PC that made the Suggestion. A bad Suggestion is just the same as a Fireball launched against a statue or illusion. Player's choice so player bears the consequences.

 

[Umbran]

3. Bard casts Suggestion on the goblin carrying the sword. Suggests that the only way the goblin will survive is if he throws the sword back. Goblin fails saving throw, and I feel this is a perfectly legitimate suggestion.

So, "throw the sword back," is ambiguous. Throw it physically back behind it? Throw it back to the goblin it just took it from? Throw it back to the pursuing undead guardians who had it before the goblins?

If the players don't specify that leaves it up to the goblin to interpret what "back" means. That will only sometimes go the way the PCs want.

If the goblin interprets this as "back to the other goblin", then the handoff does not violate the suggestion - back is more "to the previous posessor" than "physically backwards" in this case. If it interprets it as "back to the people chasing you that want it..." (a good interpretation for a somewhat cowardly goblin) it should go to whichever is more scary to the goblin - the PCs or the undead.

Unless the PCS are really, really scary, the undead would have been a good pick, there.

 

[GMMichael]

I think the solution is in here, somewhere...

 

[Ruin Explorer]

It was the PC that made the Suggestion. A bad Suggestion is just the same as a Fireball launched against a statue or illusion. Player's choice so player bears the consequences.

Holding players responsible for DMs deciding to metagame and ignore how spells work is some pretty bizarre reasoning, even by the standards of the internet. Every good DM makes a bad call occasionally. Only terrible DMs "never" make bad calls.

Even the DM in question now is thinking he made the wrong decision. And the entire relay was ungodly metagaming caused by a corner-case interaction of the movement and initiative rules and a house rule on exchanging items.

 

[Salthorae]

Yeah, thinking about it more, I can see that argument. The Suggestion Goblin resists anything other than something that makes the sword go back to the undead guardians so it can escape.

Note, the bit about bigger bad guys and whatnot, well, as I said, I ruled that the suggestion was perfectly okay. That's not something I feel I need to reexamine.

Like I said, I left it up to the dice - a second saving throw. But, thinking about it now, that's kinda screwing over the caster.

I would have ruled it was contrary to the suggestion forcing the goblins to squabble over the sword. That would have had the added benefit of slowing them down relative to the party and the undead guardians as they played tug-of-war over it.

As a player, I would have felt cheated out of my 'clever spell use' moment which I so love if the spell had succeeded and then suddenly failed all the same round. it would have been deflating for sure.