An Open Letter to Fantasy Flight and Cubicle 7 -- Cut the "Foreplay" and Give Us the Good Stuff

[TrippyHippy]

Nothing I've said has been unfair (I'm not sure fairness applies to opinions) but it has been negative. The thread is a negative thread started with one gamers complaints. In other threads on other boards and with conversations with friends I've said some great things about the game. This is not a thread about what is great and not so great about EotE, it is a thread about very specific complaints about two games and I purposefully stayed on topic as best I could.

OK. Point accepted. Let's move on - maybe we can find something we agree on later.

 

[Crothian]

Actually, I can quote from the movie dialogue, literature, radio shows and indeed other Games (WEG) that state quite clearly that the Empire and Darth Vader drove the Jedi to the point of extinction

The game doesn't agree with extinction. It uses the phrase "vast majority" which is vague but a minority of the Jedi must have survived. The game also says that any living ones would be at the edge of the galaxy which is this setting. Since the game says there are Jedi, the game places those Jedi in the geographical place it covers I think the game should have rules for Jedi. Now, if the game agreed with your sources that the Jedi are extinct except for what we see in the movie then I would have less of a complaint of no Jedi in the book.

 

[Remus Lupin]

Agreed. There's a lot of canon that's been set in place since WEG's version of it, much of which takes the perspective that there are still a few Jedi scattered throughout the Galaxy. To be driven *to the point of extinction* is not quite the same as being extinct, and there are other Jedi in the canon during the Dark Times who are said to have survived Jax Palavin, Dass Jennir, and Ku'Kruck among them.

I acknowledge that FFG will be putting out a Jedi game eventually. I am simply saying that I'm not willing to invest in the game until the Jedi option is opened up. Then I'll be able to evaluate it on it's merits. It's not a knock on FFG, Edge of the Empire, or anything else to say that this game doesn't appeal to me or what I'm looking for in a Star Wars game.

 

[Scars Unseen]

I acknowledge that FFG will be putting out a Jedi game eventually. I am simply saying that I'm not willing to invest in the game until the Jedi option is opened up. Then I'll be able to evaluate it on it's merits. It's not a knock on FFG, Edge of the Empire, or anything else to say that this game doesn't appeal to me or what I'm looking for in a Star Wars game.

And I think that is a perfectly sensible stance to take. I don't share it personally, but I can certainly respect it.

 

[innerdude]

What we've said, repeatedly, but apparently not at a frequency that TrippyHippy is capable of hearing, is that we are disappointed that the product has been designed and marketed in such a way that a) we cannot play that game we would prefer to play out of the box, and b) we are being asked to invest in at least one, and possibly two additional products in order to get a relatively complete package to play the game we would like.

I think FFG is a very good company. And I'm sure that Edge of the Empire is fine game for people who want that kind of game -- are you hearing this TrippyHippy???? -- My argument is that it doesn't represent Star Wars in a way that I find conducive to the kind of stories I want to tell and the kind of game I want to play. This is not because I'm a power gaming munchkin who wants to wring every last ounce of cheese from my characters (anyone who's played with me can testify to that). It is because I have a particular vision of what makes Star Wars special and unique.

^^^^^^^^ BINGO ^^^^^^^^

Substitute this EXACT comment for The One Ring, and that's the ENTIRE point of this thread.

/endofdiscussion

 

[innerdude]

FFG is making a game with the Jedi in it. They have said(in the video I posted previously in this thread) that they are splitting the releases into three games focusing on different aspects of the Star Wars universe so that they can give each of these major aspects an full in depth treatment that they just couldn't accomplish in a single all encompassing book.

Translation: "We at Fantasy Flight are pretty damn sure we can make more money by holding out on the good stuff, because if we include Jedi in the first product, nobody will buy products 2 and 3."

 

[innerdude]

If you like the game mechanics then you just need to expand them to include Jedi. Normally you'd buy an RPG because you like the game mechanics and/or the setting, but Star Wars (and LotR) are heavily laden with source material and there really isn't anything a company is going to add to the basics of either setting.

What makes FFGs and Cubicle 7's game mechanics so difficult that a homecampaign version of Jedi or Men from Rohan or adventures in Gondor are so difficult to create?

The point is that with campaigns potentially laden with such rich source material . . . why is a significant portion of that source material ignored in the initial product offering?

My answer is bluntly and more than a bit cynically, because the companies making the games on which the source material is based think they'll make more money doing it this way. To me, it feels manipulative and disingenuous. "Oh hey, look! You know that stuff you really wanted out of the gate? Yeah, give us another $100+ of your cash, and maybe you'll get it!"

If Edge of the Empire is to your taste out of the gate, more power to you. All I know is that when I heard the phrase "multiple product release cycle," my interest in Edge of the Empire went from moderately excited to extremely disappointed.

 

[Scars Unseen]

Translation: "We at Fantasy Flight are pretty damn sure we can make more money by holding out on the good stuff, because if we include Jedi in the first product, nobody will buy products 2 and 3."

If that's your take on it, so be it. It's cynical, pessimistic, and you're basically calling them liars, so I have less respect for that opinion, but it's yours to have. It doesn't seem to hold to reason though. If they were trying to milk the fans, WotC pretty much showed a better way to do that: Make a generic system that technically covers the most iconic aspects of the universe(even if it does so badly and without even trying to actually emulate the movies through gameplay) and then release splatbooks until you run out of ideas for such, then revise the whole thing, forcing people(that want to play the latest version) to rebuy everything.

With FFG's approach, it would be quite easy just to ignore any parts you aren't interested in and wait for, as you call it, the "good stuff." It's all up front, with no deceptive marketing trying to get more money out of you. Honest, you might call it.

 

[Agatheron]

I think the point is well taken in how the disappointment in EotE appears to be more a marketing scheme than good game planning. I don't happen to agree, but I can see how the point is being made. Should Force and Destiny have been released first, or should Age of Rebellion have been released first? I can't say, truthfully, but I think if Force and Destiny were released first, there might have been some complaining that they couldn't play Boba Fett, Bossk, Cad Bane, or any other bounty hunter.

EotE gives us a taste of the Force/Jedi, but only a taste. It was FFG's choice to leave the full treatment until later, which is there prerogative, as they have the license. I do understand the logic. Yes, it is part marketing, but it is also part "entry point" as the majority of Episode IV's first act is in the realm of EoTE. The second act is arguably a mix of EotE and FaD material (limited), while the opening scene an the climax are firmly in the AoR material. I happen to agree with their choice, but unfortunately, I think FFG was damned if they did, and damned if they didn't.

For me, I am excited for the long term prospects for this game, given that each section is going to get a massive book treatment. Am I disappointed that I have to wait to see how the Full Jedi/Sith treatment looks? Yes. Has it prevented me from investing in the current game? No. Do I risk disappointment in the Jedi treatment in 2 years' time? Yes, although not likely given what I have already seen. Is it going to stop me from playing EotE? No.

Its solely my opinion, and I'll own it as such, that I think EotE needs to be judged on the merits of what is included and how it works as a game, rather than what they left out. I realise others may not share this opinion. I'd say if you're not wanting to buy the game, see if you can borrow someone else's copy and give what's there a read.

I should add that the beginner boxed game initially had no interest for me, as it didn't include character creation. What sold me on the game was a light flip-through of the Core Rulebook combined with an extensive read of the rules as presented in the free RPG day Shadows of Black Sun adventure. I was lucky to get the last copy the LGS had before their first shipment sold out.

 

[TrippyHippy]

The game doesn't agree with extinction. It uses the phrase "vast majority" which is vague but a minority of the Jedi must have survived. The game also says that any living ones would be at the edge of the galaxy which is this setting. Since the game says there are Jedi, the game places those Jedi in the geographical place it covers I think the game should have rules for Jedi. Now, if the game agreed with your sources that the Jedi are extinct except for what we see in the movie then I would have less of a complaint of no Jedi in the book.

Um...the opening paragraph in the Force chapter (p273, EotE) states:

"Belief in the Force is nearly extinct in the galaxy. The Empire has relentlessly destroyed all evidence of the Jedi and their ancient religion."

That's pretty unambiguous.

It does go on to state that a few individuals still go on believing in the Force, and even fewer that can draw from it's power. Then it goes on to describe these individuals in the rest of the chapter. Force Sensitives are present and fully included. In terms of the handful of individual Jedi that may still be out there on the fringes of the Galaxy (and remember the Empire and most of the population don't believe there are any), they keep a low profile to avoid being exterminated. That is canon.

In terms of the Expanded Universe material, as far as I am aware, there was only one other Jedi mentioned during this period, not portrayed in the movies, and he was killed by Vader. No doubt we will get more information on these individuals when the third corebook comes around - but none of this counters what has been said before. The EotE provides everything it says on the cover, including ample material for the Force and playing force sensitive characters with powers.