Ancient Aryan civilization achieved incredible technological progress 40 centuries ag

[tarchon]

wow, they got me then... i couldn't tell that the article was a joke. and if there are references to white surpremacists, they must be buried pretty well because i couldn't find them.

It's fairly typical Russian pop science, not meant to be funny, even if it is unintentionally. The notion of a proto-Indo-European-speaking culture originating in Russia is quite popular there for obvious reasons, and it's not without some merit. The term "Aryan" hasn't developed as much of a negative connotation in Russia as it has in the US, though I can't say if the Russian archaeological community still uses it in a technical sense (it's largely obsolete in English-speaking scientific circles). If that date is anything like being correct, it certainly wouldn't have been inhabited by PIE speakers, though possibly their descendants ("Aryans" in the broad sense). Assigning languages to pre-literate sites is always a little dubious, but if it's a Kurgan site, there's at least something to back it up. The White Supremacists basically hold the idea that this "Aryan" culture is sort of like the ancestral culture of white people, largely a gross misunderstanding of a couple quaint archaeological theories that went out of fashion a hundred years ago.
Pravda isn't quite as bad as the Enquirer, but the level of science is about on par with like Omni or Science Digest, if anyone remembers them.

 

[Mystery Man]

Notice I said "interesting" not "hey check out this absolutely true story!"

The White Supremacists basically hold the idea that this "Aryan" culture is sort of like the ancestral culture of white people, largely a gross misunderstanding of a couple quaint archaeological theories that went out of fashion a hundred years ago.
Pravda isn't quite as bad as the Enquirer, but the level of science is about on par with like Omni or Science Digest, if anyone remembers them.

Hitler believed the Germans were descended from the Aryan master race.

 

[BOZ]

true, they even went to like the himalayas and/or india IIRC to verify that indeed germans were the mythological descendants of these people (the nazis sure believed they were, but i somehow doubt that!)

 

[The_Fan]

They probably shared a common ancestor, along with the Iranians. I'm a historian, not an archeologist, but I see a similar pattern to the Aryan invasion that occured with the Huns and the Mongols. All of them came from the steppes of central asia, but to call them "Russian," "Indian," or most of all "German" is a gross simplification.

 

[tarchon]

They probably shared a common ancestor, along with the Iranians. I'm a historian, not an archeologist, but I see a similar pattern to the Aryan invasion that occured with the Huns and the Mongols. All of them came from the steppes of central asia, but to call them "Russian," "Indian," or most of all "German" is a gross simplification.

There's a big difference between sharing a common ancestral population, which all these population groups clearly don't (or only to a limited degree), and sharing cultural influences, which they obviously do. The major fallacy of white supremacist and Nazi Aryanism is/was conflating language, culture, and heredity. The assumption was that because Germans speak an "Aryan" language and have some cultural affinities to that putative Aryan culture, they must be Aryans. What this train of thought generally overlooks is that in most places where IE speakers appeared there is fairly strong genetic and material continuity with presumptively pre-IE local cultures. The real process of IE expansion is still argued over, probably different in different places, but the invasion-replacement scenario that fascinated the fascists is clearly denied by archaeological and genetic evidence in most cases, certainly in Europe.

 

[The_Fan]

Oh, I wasn't saying invasion/replacement. I'm more for invasion/assimilation. That was the story with the Mongols, who universally adopted the local culture wherever they conquered, and the Franks, who attempted to recreate Rome after they destroyed it.

 

[tarchon]

Oh, I wasn't saying invasion/replacement. I'm more for invasion/assimilation. That was the story with the Mongols, who universally adopted the local culture wherever they conquered, and the Franks, who attempted to recreate Rome after they destroyed it.

Even invasion is just an assumption. Historical cultural diffusion in Central Asia has shown that numerous technologies (pasta for instance) don't require an invasion scenario to make their way around. The (re)introduction of the horse to North America is another example - many Indian tribes rapidly exploited horses before ever seeing a white butt sitting on one. I wouldn't argue against invasion having been a component of the IE expansion, but it's unlikely that it was the only mechanism of diffusion.

 

[The_Fan]

Of course it isn't the only method, but historical records and local legends certainly imply that invasion was a key component. Many ancient Indian holy texts are practically a record of such invasions, played out as a metaphorical war between good and evil.

Also, I'm curious about the horse re-introduction. Havn't heard much about that. Care to elaborate?

 

[tarchon]

Of course it isn't the only method, but historical records and local legends certainly imply that invasion was a key component. Many ancient Indian holy texts are practically a record of such invasions, played out as a metaphorical war between good and evil.

Many scholars interpret Vedic texts in that way, but - and I have a similar criticism of the ubiquitous "flood" theories - wars and invasions aren't exactly a rare phenomenon, so I think it's a big jump to say that this mythological war or that mythological war must be a reflection of the precise war in which IE speakers conquered non-IE speakers in some particular region. If history is any guide, most cultures could expect at least a couple major conflicts every generation. Sure, maybe the Titanomachia reflects the war of the "Aryan" Oympians versus the "Pelasgian" Titans, but maybe it represents the war of one "Aryan" tribe against another (e.g. Dorians vs. Ionians), or between two factions of a tribe, or between two Pelasgian tribes, or between Greeks and Phoenicians, or maybe it's just a metaphor for the conquest of nature by man, or maybe it was just a good yarn. Who knows? It's pretty thin basis for interpreting word distributions, potshards, and postholes, if you ask me. It makes for good books, but objectively such readings of mythology aren't much for real evidence.

Also, I'm curious about the horse re-introduction. Havn't heard much about that. Care to elaborate?

Eh, shouldn't take too much googling to find. One...
http://www.blm.gov/education/00_resources/articles/wild_bunch/wildbunch6.html

 

[Mystery Man]

more of the subject

While somewhat..eh...farfetched, makes for great campaign setting fodder.

Top 10 Ancient Civilizations With Advanced Technology