When to start publishing?

Meahuys

Villager
Hi there,

I just joined this community, and I am already impressed by the amount of work and ideas people are willing to offer to help new role-playing systems get off the ground. First of all, since I’m new here, I’d like to say hello and tell you a little bit about myself.
I’m a 40-year-old biologist who has somehow found his calling in developing his own role-playing game. Over the last three years, what started as a stupid idea has become my personal quest. Initially, I was just frustrated by the direction popular games were taking at the time, and I started to ask myself: "How could this be done in a way that feels more interesting, challenging, and ultimately rewarding?" As a result, I began to gather ideas and developed a world where all these events, that feel right to me, might take place. That was about six years ago.

After I had already accepted that I would never be able to make this dream come true, I took a leap of faith and asked my role-playing group if they were willing to try something completely new and probably very foolish. They were interested, so we gave it a shot. After a lot of work and countless tests, I am finally at a point where I am confident that this system works, and I believe it offers something that hasn’t been done before.

By now, I believe the time has come to present my work to a wider community, which is also a bit of a problem. I would love to show you my work, but I’ve used so many pictures and graphics that I just took from the internet, which means there would be lots of copyright issues. So here’s my question: What do you think is more important? Should I make my game accessible to more players, even if that means I need to put a lot of effort into reworking things that are already functional, or should I continue developing the game mechanics to offer a more refined experience for players who are interested in trying the game? At this point, I’m just interested in your opinion. If enough people join this discussion, I’ll make a poll later on.

So, I’ve already written quite a lot without telling you much about my project. Since I plan to make it free for everyone under a Creative Commons license, I don’t see any harm in sharing the basic ideas that should make this game a unique experience for a wide variety of players.

Q: Why do you think it’s necessary to come up with a completely new system instead of just modifying an existing one?
A:
What has bothered me most about role-playing games and ARPGs alike is the lack of a solid system to create interesting and challenging fights while still giving you real freedom in creating the character you like and acting as you see fit. Traditional pen-and-paper games do offer total freedom in creating a truly unique character, but most systems I’ve played have very dull combat mechanics. Either you end up with overpowered characters who can take down hordes of enemies without a scratch, or players avoid any armed conflict due to the high risk of dying, thus losing everything they’ve spent hours creating. Action RPGs, on the other hand, offer interesting combat builds and challenging fights but often lack the truly free and unrestricted decision-making that you get from pen-and-paper games.

Q: Since you say this is a problem in many RPGs, what makes your system special so that it avoids the same "flaw"?
A:
As strange as it may sound, Action RPGs use a very simple idea to increase the challenge: they "offer" a small but realistic chance of dying. This is something I haven’t experienced in many pen-and-paper games. So I asked myself: what’s so bad about dying in a pen-and-paper RPG? The answer is obvious. Losing your character repeatedly can be so frustrating that players stop creating interesting, well-thought-out background stories and character traits. Why spend hours creating a character if the GM might kill them soon after? Some games do include this concept, but to me, that’s too extreme, turning the game into a dice-rolling frenzy that moves further away from interesting characters and player-driven stories. So I created an RPG that allows players to die without permanently losing their characters.

Q: So you created an RPG were players are "immortal". You could still just tweak an existing system and add the ability to resurrect characters to make your idea work. What’s so special about your world?
A:
True, but it would feel superficial to me and leaves crucial questions unanswered. What are the downsides of dying? Why can players be resurrected? How does that fit into the game’s lore? To avoid these plot holes, I decided to create an entire universe that serves as the canvas for a world where dying is possible, but still so incredibly painful that players will try to avoid it. As a GM, you don't need to shy away from intense fights or other threatening scenarios. Your players have to decide if they're up to the task and deal with the consequences if they've misjudged their potential.

Q: Alright. Let's say you convinced me that this system might work. What kind of world can I expect?
A:
Since this is part of the world’s history, which will be published as a series of novels, I don’t want to give too many spoilers. Here’s what I can share: This universe was created by a handful of godlike beings called the Primordials. These supernatural beings took part in the creation of the world and are therefore woven into the fabric of reality. Player characters are mediums who can sense these energies and have learned to manipulate them, giving them shape in physical form. Or, to be more precise, you will learn how to use these energies by spending your earned experience points in numerous skill trees dedicated to these Primordials. But more on that later.
Regardless of this background, humanity has managed to almost wipe itself off the face of the world. Only a few survivors remain on the surface, which has reverted to a natural state filled with mutated beasts, gigantic insects, ghostly apparitions, and bloodthirsty cannibals. And of course, they also know how to channel the primordial energies. Additionally, the world is filled with artifacts from a long-lost but highly advanced civilization. Their high-tech gadgets may look like magic to you, but isn’t every advanced technology a form of magic in some way? As a result, players will combine these technological artifacts with their supernatural powers to survive the harsh conditions they must endure.
I know this is still a very vague description, as it only outlines the situation before the game begins. But since most of these ideas are part of the novels and some concepts are still in development, I don’t want to give away too many spoilers just yet. I will say, however, that my first novel is almost finished and will hopefully be available next year for those who want to learn more about this world.

Q: Okay. Now I have a vague idea of how this world might look. What about the rules and game mechanics?
A:
To be honest, the existing rules are already quite complex, so it’s hard to explain them briefly. What I can say is that I aim for a highly complex and challenging system with a steep learning curve. To avoid lengthy discussions about GM decisions or forcing players to constantly calculate their stats, I’ve developed an elaborate character sheet that handles all of that for you. However, the project has grown far beyond what I initially expected, and I’ve reached the limit of my own coding abilities to fully automate everything. We’re essentially talking about an entire PC game at this point. What I can offer for now is probably the most bloated Excel sheet you’ll ever see, but it will do all the calculations for you, including fighting numerous monsters and foes. It’s still in a rather alpha-ish state, but it serves the purpose of game development.
Since I haven’t said much about the actual mechanics yet, let me give you a few teasers on what makes my game unique:
  • Attributes matter! Unlike most ARPGs, your stats are extremely important—not just to give you and the GM an idea of how much muscle strength or willpower your character possesses, but also because they determine the skills you can access. And there’s no equipment that can change that. A belt with +5 Strength? Not in my world! I mean, seriously—how does that work? As long as I wear my magic bra, I can lift trees, but without it, I can’t even move a small rock? You’ll spend a lot of time carefully considering how to allocate your hard-earned skill points.
  • There are no classes. You decide who you want to be! Only your attribute distribution will determine whether your character is a stealthy rogue or a tanky frontline soldier. Your character can be anything, but not all at once. Make your choice and deal with the consequences.
  • It never stops! Unlike most games in the "loot and leveling" genre, my system offers continuous progress. You won’t have to wait forever to learn new abilities, and you’ll never reach a point where you’ve mastered everything you want. There’s always more to achieve, and even well-experienced characters will have something to strive for. You’re never truly finished, and your next big development is just a few sessions away.
  • You’re never done! The game is designed so that you can unlock new abilities and traits as you play. Even if you think you’ve found the perfect skill setup, by the time you get there, the sheet will offer so many new options that you’ll still be able to further develop your character. You may think you’ll be overpowered once you reach your goal, but you can always become even more OP. And you’ll need to, as your enemies grow stronger too. In the end, you can create a character that starts as a commoner and becomes a demigod-like being. If you enjoy the hero’s journey, this game will give you everything you need to experience it.
  • You can’t have it all! While your character will eventually become incredibly powerful, you can never have everything. No matter what you do, there will still be enemies you fear, even if you’re playing a highly experienced character. Different builds will have unique strengths and weaknesses, giving each playthrough a fresh feeling.
  • Become a legend! Unlike most other games, characters will retire once they reach a certain level of experience. This might take years of playing, and some players may never get there, but for those who do, there are various ways to achieve something so difficult that they become a legend. Not every character will achieve this, but those who do will be immortalized in the official game lore.
  • It’s always expanding! This game is meant to be a community project. Anyone who wants to contribute can do so, and amazing characters and stories will become part of the official lore. The only restriction is that apocalyptic scenarios that destroy the entire universe are off-limits. But there’s room for numerous stories that shape the fate of entire planets. If you want to be part of a universe that’s always growing, with dozens of story arcs and unique characters, this game offers that opportunity.
These are just a few of the core concepts that should give this game a unique feel. As I mentioned before, some of these goals are still in progress, and other ideas are so rudimentary that it doesn’t make sense to highlight them yet.

Q: Now I know a lot of what I can achieve, but I still have no clue how to actually do it. How much of your rules are done and tested, and which are just ideas?
A:
First, the rules for role-playing and the rules for combat are largely separate. Of course, every RPG involves some dice rolling, but to make things faster and easier, most checks will use a single D100 (or more precisely, D100.0, since Excel can handle this and gives a better resolution). Depending on the situation, the roll should either be as high as possible (mainly in role-playing situations and rare combat scenarios) or as low as possible (in most combat situations).

Currently, there are very few rules for the role-playing part. Aside from basic guidelines for attributes and survival skills, there are no rules yet—and I aim to keep it that way as much as possible. Of course, there will be rules, but I want to implement them in a way that encourages players to avoid situations where the GM asks for a dice roll. I’ve introduced the concept of "punishing rolls," where success offers no major benefit (aside from things like opening a door), but failure results in penalties. This encourages players to find creative solutions that fit their characters and situations, allowing them to convince the GM that their approach works. Clever role-playing can save players from dangerous situations that could otherwise result in death due to bad luck. And since death is a possibility, one unlucky roll can lead to a gruesome demise. So it’s better to convince the GM than to rely on luck.

Now, where’s the dice-rolling frenzy? If you love rolling dice, combat will give you everything you’ve dreamed of. There’s no convincing the GM here—either you win, or you don’t. Your character’s abilities, a bit of luck, and a lot of strategy will be essential. So far, we’ve been using a virtual tabletop for this turn-based combat system. The rules are clear: if your chance to hit is 67.8% and you roll 67.9%, you miss. If your range is 1.5 meters and your enemy is 1.53 meters away, you need to move. If you can’t, tough luck! In combat, all your character’s acquired abilities will be put to the test—managing your "mana," movement points, and staying alive while defeating enemies. Cooperation is key, and only a well-coordinated team will succeed. Thankfully, all the dice rolling and calculations are done automatically by the sheet, which provides numerous info boxes explaining what just happened. But be warned: even the mightiest of warriors can fall, as your opponents know exactly how to cripple and constrain you. These rules have been tested in dozens, or even hundreds of fights and are already working quite well.

Okay, by now you’ve probably realized that I love walls of text. And I know that most of you still don’t have a clear picture of how an actual fight might look. Which brings me back to the original question: Should I focus on bringing this game to an alpha version that can be published, or does it still sound too vague, making it better to spend a few more years in development before offering it to a wider community?
I’m looking forward to your replies,
Meahuys
 
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aco175

Legend
@Meahuys welcome to the boards, I know there are people here to give better advise than myself. I did not see a TLDR (to long, didn't read) version of your summary text. I managed to get through the first half and then just skimmed down. I gather you made a better RPG system with better fights and PC advancement. It is cool that your friends liked it and you want to get it published.

I would make some sort of Alpha version for a bigger trial than just your gamming group. Someone might come along and point out that those rules are already under some copyright or some can see the issues of combining elements you have not thought of. It will change and that might be good.

Not to disparage, but I see the biggest problem is that it is not D&D. Way too many people only play D&D and learning a new system is not worth it. You need to be fast enough and cool enough to get people that try things to drag others along. Best of Luck.
 

Theory of Games

Storied Gamist
Great post!
So here’s my question: What do you think is more important? Should I make my game accessible to more players, even if that means I need to put a lot of effort into reworking things that are already functional, or should I continue developing the game mechanics to offer a more refined experience for players who are interested in trying the game?
What's important is determined by YOU: if you only want to create a game that YOU enjoy, looks like you've done that. If you want to create a game that's commercially successful, you'll never know until you provide it to the public. Contrary to what some may tell you, your game doesn't need to play like D&D to be successful. There's plenty of successful games that don't (e.g., Call of Cthulhu, Vampire, and Shadowrun). But looking at the OSR, one could say that copying D&D's design structure can lead to success.

You have to decide what's important for YOU and then they run with it.
 

Waller

Legend
I feel that the 'uniqueness' of this system is simply that it's not D&D. Most of the features are described in terms of that--"not classes", not "loot and levelling", not "ending at a certain level", etc. Plus some stuff about dying (or not sying? I'm not sure!) that I couldn't really follow.

Not to put a downer on it, just that it's hard to grok a system that's vaguely described in these terms. I'm sure if I knew more specifics I'd be able to make a more informed comment.

But like others have said, a playtest wider than just your group would be my next step. Maybe a closed playtest, and later a bigger open playtest.
 

Meahuys

Villager
Why is it dopple-posting if I try to correct a tippo? Sorry for the inconvenience guys!

Isn't it possible to remove an answer? I really don't want to spam this forum!
 

Meahuys

Villager
@Meahuys welcome to the boards, I know there are people here to give better advise than myself. I did not see a TLDR (to long, didn't read) version of your summary text. I managed to get through the first half and then just skimmed down. I gather you made a better RPG system with better fights and PC advancement. It is cool that your friends liked it and you want to get it published.

I would make some sort of Alpha version for a bigger trial than just your gamming group. Someone might come along and point out that those rules are already under some copyright or some can see the issues of combining elements you have not thought of. It will change and that might be good.

Not to disparage, but I see the biggest problem is that it is not D&D. Way too many people only play D&D and learning a new system is not worth it. You need to be fast enough and cool enough to get people that try things to drag others along. Best of Luck.

Hi aco,

thanks for your reply. I basically started with the TLDR part to make sure people get my question even if they don't want to go through all the text bellow but I guess I would be better to make this clear (e.g. by adding a TLDR). Thanks for the pointer.

Although I am rather sure that my mechanics and ruleset can't be copyright protected yet is surely better to find out rather than guessing. I didn't took that possibility into account yet. Thanks for the reminder.

And you can offer as much criticism as you see fit. I don't feel disparaged by it at all. On the contrary. Every single fact that helps to shape the game into a more refined form is a wonderful thing. Although I don't fear that "not being D&D" is something that will cause any problems. In the end, if all goes as planned, I intend to offer kind of an empty canvas with a clear set of rules that is impeded in a single universe but within that universe players are free to play as they see fit. You prefer a medieval D&D-ish atmosphere? No problem! This universe is big enough to find a planet were people are still living in medieval times. So you can have your group start their journey at this point. Some zombie apocalypse or vampire hunting? Sure, go nuts? As long as it's within the establish rules and guidelines of this world all groups are free to play in an environment that they see fit. Which is one of the strongest arguments to play my game (once it will be released in its final version *a man can dream). You might play it in a D&D-ish fashion but you don't have to and you can mix up different ideas and aspects without breaking the world. Medieval setting with rocket-launchers and Cyborgs. Sounds strange but sure, why not? Everything that floats your boat.
 

Meahuys

Villager
Great post!

What's important is determined by YOU: if you only want to create a game that YOU enjoy, looks like you've done that. If you want to create a game that's commercially successful, you'll never know until you provide it to the public. Contrary to what some may tell you, your game doesn't need to play like D&D to be successful. There's plenty of successful games that don't (e.g., Call of Cthulhu, Vampire, and Shadowrun). But looking at the OSR, one could say that copying D&D's design structure can lead to success.

You have to decide what's important for YOU and then they run with it.
Thanks for the hands up, Theory of Games.

I guess you’re right. I have to decide when it feels right to publish my work but maybe that's part of the problem. Somehow it will always feel kind of incomplete for me since I am just not able to get it to the point where it looks like the picture in my mind. There's so much I still need to do before it is done, that I am uncertain how many years this might still take. But I started to realize that not all of it has to be perfect before I can show it to a wider community. And by "perfect" I mean things like. Every ability has its own artwork. The sheet is already written in Python and accessible in several languages. All rules are done, implemented and tested, ...

This is just too much to ask for a "one-man designer team". But just by asking here if I should already offer an alpha-ish version to a wider community kind of shows that I already decided that I've reached a point where I need the input of a larger community to keep improving what I've already achieved.


And thanks for the heads up regarding D&D. I really don't want to come up with "yet another D&D clone" and hope, that there is room out there for something that tries it a little differently.
 

Meahuys

Villager
I feel that the 'uniqueness' of this system is simply that it's not D&D. Most of the features are described in terms of that--"not classes", not "loot and levelling", not "ending at a certain level", etc. Plus some stuff about dying (or not sying? I'm not sure!) that I couldn't really follow.

Not to put a downer on it, just that it's hard to grok a system that's vaguely described in these terms. I'm sure if I knew more specifics I'd be able to make a more informed comment.

But like others have said, a playtest wider than just your group would be my next step. Maybe a closed playtest, and later a bigger open playtest.
Hi Waller,

I understand what you are implying. It is kind of hard to give people some kind of insight without spoiling lots of details but I would be wise to put it in a form were my readers at least get an idea of what I am talking about. Especially if my descriptions are so vague, that people just don't understand what I am trying to say. Could you point out for me what part of the stuff about dying that isn't clear to you? Maybe it would be best to rephrase the opening thread to make this clearer, since it is one of the features that has the widest impact on gameplay. And another thing. English isn't my mother tongue and it obviously been a while since I've been writing in an English community. Could you please elaborate what "sying" means since I haven't been able to find any kind of translation so far?

And thanks for your evaluation. It is getting more and clearer to me, that I need to expand my community in order to keep developing the game into a form where a wide variety of players might enjoy it.
 
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Meahuys

Villager
Yeah, that sound's reasonable *d'oh.

Thanks for clarification. Maybe a little bit of fresh air would be the right thing to get my mind working again ;-)
 

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