Andy Collin's comments re censoring playtester reviews

[malladin]

But why am I even reacting to this post? The fact alone that the post claims that game designer is not a profession alone sounds too arrogant to be worth discussing. So I stop. Now.

Pity, since my opinion of what is and isn't professionalism is based on post graduate studies of the subject! How about your opinion?

Ultimately the only quantifiable measure of "professional" game designer is someone who gets paid to design games. Game designers do not fulfill the traditional definations of a profession; social relevence, you know like in the examples I gave, oversite by a recognised organisation/governmental department, agreed ethical codes of conduct and a recognised qualification in the field, congratulations if you can point me to a single game designer with any formal "professional" game design accreditation.

If you actually want an informed opinion, rather than just putting someone down because you don't agree with them I can happily recommend

Eraut, M. (1994) Developing Professional Knowledge and Competence. London: The Falmer Press.

Even going by the more general definition of a professional, someone paid to do something, my arguments still hold in comparing the behaviour of these professionals to real ones, you remember the actual point of the post. And humour can easily be used to lash out under the cover of it being 'funny' but really a way of insulting/denegrating people. I assume from your view of the nature of humour you've no problems with jokes using race, belief or gender being acceptable, especially to those they target? Even thats irrelevent since the post I was referring to stated the acceptability of lashing out.

So maybe before you call someone's opinion arrogant you might want to consider what their saying and how much you know on the subject.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

Also, mental illness and problems don't stop at such lines as 'professional' or 'facing public'.

If stars can have bad moments, so them.

 

[Maggan]

congratulations if you can point me to a single game designer with any formal "professional" game design accreditation.

I can't point you to individuals, but here in Sweden you can take university level courses to become an official game designer. So here at least, it's considered a profession, and one which you can produce a diploma for.

/M

 

[malladin]

Also, mental illness and problems don't stop at such lines as 'professional' or 'facing public'.

If stars can have bad moments, so them.

True and everyones human, but standards of behaviour are a reality of business and its an employees job to adhere to them as best they can. What I'm saying is while its understandable, lashing out is neither good practice nor something that should be argued as justified, which several posters have done.

 

[malladin]

I can't point you to individuals, but here in Sweden you can take university level courses to become an official game designer. So here at least, it's considered a profession, and one which you can produce a diploma for.

/M

Wow, thats cool! Is that for computer games rather than RPGs though? I thought the British education system was liberal Also, by professional qualification I refer to one thats needed to undertake the job, so teaching certificate etc, and is overviewed by a recognised authority. The other points and the general argument stand though.

 

[PoeticJustice]

It's quite simple. There are a lot of people here who are absolutely sure that Fourth Edition will totally suck. Therefore, any opinion other than that is clearly the work of someone who is "biased" or "intentionally misleading" the public.

Obviously, people who hold this opinion won't accept they're getting an honest review of Fourth Edition until someone says, effectively, "this isn't D&D," or "I'd never play this horrible, steaming pile of bantha poodoo."

Personally, I hardly find that view "open-minded."

I don't agree with this at all. While I'm not converting 4E, it's mostly because I have a lot of 3.5 left to use and frankly think it's way too soon for an edition. I'll admit that I was resistant, even resentful of the publicity Wotc gave it, particularly due to the mishandling of Online Dragon and Dungeon, but that's in the past. I don't mind 4E, but I'm probably not going to play it any time soon.

I never called nor anyone else, any names. I'll admit I haven't seen every post on this thread, but I don't think anybody else came out and directly slandered a designer. If they did, I'll agree that they shouldn't have. This goes for myself.

In the end, I think Ari not mentioning the terms of what he was and was not allowed to talk about was a bad decision. I do not think he lied or embellished to promote 4E. I still would have preferred to know when I first read it that he was forbidden from criticizing it.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

The fact that this book and field exists says far more about the arrogance of academics than it does about the professionalism of game designers. Who the hell are they to say who is a 'professional' and who is not?

Is Bill Gates a professional? He has no oversight be a recognized organization, nor has he any 'agreed ethical codes of conduct', nor a recognized qualification in the field (a degree).

The idea that academics claim the ability to deem some people 'professionals' while witholding that designation from others makes me cringe. It reminds me of the so called 'Ethicists' that get trotted out by the media every time some controversial scientific advance gets made. Such hubris.

Ken

Pity, since my opinion of what is and isn't professionalism is based on post graduate studies of the subject! How about your opinion?

Ultimately the only quantifiable measure of "professional" game designer is someone who gets paid to design games. Game designers do not fulfill the traditional definations of a profession; social relevence, you know like in the examples I gave, oversite by a recognised organisation/governmental department, agreed ethical codes of conduct and a recognised qualification in the field, congratulations if you can point me to a single game designer with any formal "professional" game design accreditation.

If you actually want an informed opinion, rather than just putting someone down because you don't agree with them I can happily recommend

Eraut, M. (1994) Developing Professional Knowledge and Competence. London: The Falmer Press.

Even going by the more general definition of a professional, someone paid to do something, my arguments still hold in comparing the behaviour of these professionals to real ones, you remember the actual point of the post. And humour can easily be used to lash out under the cover of it being 'funny' but really a way of insulting/denegrating people. I assume from your view of the nature of humour you've no problems with jokes using race, belief or gender being acceptable, especially to those they target? Even thats irrelevent since the post I was referring to stated the acceptability of lashing out.

So maybe before you call someone's opinion arrogant you might want to consider what their saying and how much you know on the subject.

 

[Mouseferatu]

In the end, I think Ari not mentioning the terms of what he was and was not allowed to talk about was a bad decision. I do not think he lied or embellished to promote 4E. I still would have preferred to know when I first read it that he was forbidden from criticizing it.

You know, I've been ignoring this--over and over again--and I'm done being slammed.

The contents of the memo were themselves confidential, until Andy Collins chose to make them public. I could no more have said anything about it than I could have gone into details on the mechanics of the games. The person who first started spreading rumors and half-truths about said memo was violating their NDA.

Second, I said what I meant, and I meant what I said. I could not have said any more about the game--the vast majority that I like, or the few small points that I don't--without going into mechanical detail. And that's something I was, again, forbidden to do by NDA, completely regardless of anything any subsequent memo said.

So in essence, you're hammering me--over and over and over again--for not including a "disclaimer" that

A) would have violated NDA for me to include,

B) was irrelevant to my post, because it wouldn't have changed word one of what I said, and would only have made people doubt the veracity of my opinion even more than some of them already do.

 

[Fifth Element]

B) was irrelevant to my post, because it wouldn't have changed word one of what I said, and would only have made people doubt the veracity of my opinion even more than some of them already do.

Yes, but it's the principle of the thing, apparently.

I, for one, hold you in high esteem for your (quite reasonable) reaction to the heaps of abuse being thrown upon you. That, and the game design stuff. That's cool sweet too.

 

[pemerton]

I think Ari not mentioning the terms of what he was and was not allowed to talk about was a bad decision.

Ari obviously can defend himself - and has. But you keep saying the above as if repeating it will make it true. It won't.

People who had positive views were urged to share them. Ari had such a view, and shared it. That his view was positive was very clear and stated, by him, upfront.

What did he not tell you that is relevant to understanding or making sense of what he said? Nothing. What part of his view did he withhold? None, as far as I can tell. To reiterate yet again: HE SAID UPFRONT HIS VIEW WAS THAT 4E IS NOT PERFECT, BUT IS MERELY EXCELLENT.