Andy Collins: "Most Magic Items in D&D Are Awful"

[Celebrim]

You say this like it's a negative thing.

If I wanted to play Diablo, I'd play Diablo. An actual CRPG gives a far more enjoyable experience of a CRPG than playing D&D does. If you are going to bother with pen, paper, and dice, it seems to me that you should focus on those things that pen, paper, and dice do better than a computer, not those things which a CRPG does better.

 

[hong]

If I wanted to play Diablo, I'd play Diablo. An actual CRPG gives a far more enjoyable experience of a CRPG than playing D&D does.

You say this like they were mutually exclusive.

If you are going to bother with pen, paper, and dice,

Who cares about the pen, paper or dice? I'm here for the trash-talking! And the minis.

it seems to me that you should focus on those things that pen, paper, and dice do better than a computer, not those things which a CRPG does better.

Indeed. There ain't nothing like playing Diablo with the opportunity to actually trash-talk the opposition, with minis of your own.

 

[S'mon]

And they cost 10,000 gp. It's right there in the 1e DMG. Or that same 10,000 gp might yield the Wand of Orcus?!??!? Now granted the 1e DMG does not encourage free trade of magic items (or artifacts), but I can't imagine we were the only folks who saw the stuff had prices and made them available for sale in large cities.

Those 1e DMG prices are sale prices - a guide to what adventurer PCs can actually sell the items for! That's why the more powerful items are so cheap; because there isn't infinite wealth in the economy. Gygax specifically says not to make items buyable. I didn't then know why; I do now - no buying of MI may not be 'economically correct', but it is 'mythically correct'. Have the ancient sage, noble lord or master weaponsmith *give* the PC the +3 sword, sure. But don't have them sell it on demand.

I think, now, that Gygax probably did make a mistake setting specific values on items, it has led ultimately to the 3e situation of MI as commodity. In my Moldvay B/X game there are no prices listed and this just doesn't arise. Items are found, gifted, ocasionally made - usually by an NPC - but not bought and sold. You *could* sell that +1 sword, but most places won't give you some huge amount of cash for it.

 

[charlesatan]

If I wanted to play Diablo, I'd play Diablo. An actual CRPG gives a far more enjoyable experience of a CRPG than playing D&D does. If you are going to bother with pen, paper, and dice, it seems to me that you should focus on those things that pen, paper, and dice do better than a computer, not those things which a CRPG does better.

And I assume a CRPG is good at bartering, haggling, intimidating (and perhaps stealing from) magic item vendors?

If you don't want magic item Wal-Mart, that's fine. For other gamers, that's where they get their kicks. But even the "magic shop" experience can be a role-playing encounter. Heck in FR, the Red Wizards of Thay are plot hooks in themselves (do I buy from these guys even if I know they're ultimately villains?).

 

[hong]

And I assume a CRPG is good at bartering, haggling, intimidating (and perhaps stealing from) magic item vendors?

If you don't want magic item Wal-Mart, that's fine. For other gamers, that's where they get their kicks. But even the "magic shop" experience can be a role-playing encounter. Heck in FR, the Red Wizards of Thay are plot hooks in themselves (do I buy from these guys even if I know they're ultimately villains?).

Cue turgid response on the mythical incorrectness of Red Wizards.

 

[S'mon]

Cue turgid response on the mythical incorrectness of Red Wizards.

Wow, Hong sure has mellowed with age...

 

[hong]

Wow, Hong sure has mellowed with age...

Hey, S'mon, guess what?

ACHILLES DIED.

HAW HAW!

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Eh, the 3e DMG tells the GM to make all items freely available, up to 100,000gp value in a Metropolis.

Just one of the many things I ignore from the 3e DMG.

 

[Seeten]

Frankly, i think i solved this problem a long time ago.

I really roll on the random treasure tables.

Really.

Which is why my characters might end up with one of the six at any given time, but most often have several interesting wondrous items, potions and whatnot.

Interesting to who? To you?

Figurine of owlish power might be interesting to the DM, or maybe a ranger, but my Sorcerer couldnt care less about it. Yet it still counts against my wealth as though it were a useful item, and the Colossal Red Dragon now is apparently a fair fight, since I meet the wealth by level guidelines...with my owl.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

perhaps....

So, discuss. Do most magic items in D&D suck? Are characters overly dependent on boring +x bonuses? Are Andy Collins, et al, encouraging munchkin min-maxing when they drop the price of some magic items by over half?

If you bothered to read what he stated, it was pretty clear that the items they are dropping in price are the crappy ones, in order to get people to consider using them, as their price was a design error.