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Andy Collins: "Most Magic Items in D&D Are Awful"

ehren37 said:
Everything new is bad!
...
I'm sorry 3rd edition ran over YOUR dog.

I think most of us here are not going to be interested in this shifting to a partisan war aligned by edition. So everyone, please, let's not slip in that direction. While we are at it, let's remember that we should not be dismissive of each other's opinions and thoughts, okay?
 

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Morrus said:
I agree comletely - I find D&D's magic items to be dull, mechanical boosters,

Yeah, but from my experience this is how most players want it to be. They don't have the time or inclination to treat magic items as anything but that.
 

I solved this problem in my game. It was never a problem prior to 3e, so I just took away a few options and I was good to go.

1.) No item creation feats for players. Mages or Mastersmiths/crafters must devote themselves to the creation of these items.
2.) Magic shops do not exist. If you want to sell something, then you must find someone with the cash to buy it. This usually involves a lot of time gathering info and finding those involved in secret markets.
3.) If you want a specific item, then you quest for it or for someone who can make it.

As for spending their money, they are free to buy land, title, etc.
 

So basically buying and creating magic items diminishes magic items in some way is what your rules imply-- not that I disagree....
 

Flexor the Mighty! said:
Threads like this make me wonder if I should have even started the new 3.5 game. "I got screwed since my wealth by level isn't the same as the book, plus my actual items aren't in the big six so they suck!". I think it just requires a DM and the players to be on the same page moreso than ever.

There is nothing wrong with the rules of 3.x per se. In fact, the third edition rules (3.0 moreso than 3.5) are by far the best rules set that the D&D game has ever had.

What's wrong with 3.x is not the rules, but the presentation. It's not the rules that suck, its the maturity of the advice that goes along with them. If you read the 1st edition DMG, rulewise its an absolute mess, and some of the advice EGG gives is very suspect. (In fact, he specifically mentions that thier were failures to communicate in earlier books that created problems, for example people taking too literally the random treasure charts, so its not like he's unaware of problems.) But he never treats the DM as stupid, and he's clearly writing to the DM in a 'peer to peer' tone. If you read the 3.x edition DMG, you get the impression that the writer thinks the reader is too stupid to conduct a game with the grace and elegance that the author himself most certainly does, and so instead of writing 'peer to peer', he lays down some really juvenile guidelines for how to run a campaign designed to get say a 12 year old kid up and running as a reasonable DM on his way to maturity. I suppose they working with the assumption that most DM's are head strong creative people and will eventually grow out of any stricture you lay upon them, develop house rules, homebrews, and different styles of play. But the problem with this is that 3.x is also a much more player oriented game in presentation than earlier editions (I'm fairly certain the justification for this is economic and not game value), and as a result it tends to foster DM/Player conflict. There is an increasing assumption amongst players that 'grew up' on 3rd edition that if the DM's style doesn't exactly match that of the DMG, that he's somehow 'breaking the rules'.

Witness the many posts of the sort, "If the DM gives me what my character needs, rather than what I the player want my character to have, then he's a power-tripping ego maniacal RBDM and I don't want to play with a jerk like that." It strikes me as infantile whining, but its repeatedly what I've encountered from newer players on the board and IRL.

So, for my part, I'm a huge fan of 3rd edition. I think its great. I think its alot better of an edition than any previous edition rules wise, and its basically the rules set I was trying to create with all my tweaks of earlier editions. On the other hand, I loved playing BD&D and 1st edition, and I'm not interested in an edition wars thread. To the extent that I can sympathize with the grognards that think earlier editions were a better game, I think 3rd editions sucks worse than any other edition as a guideline to running an interesting campaign, or being creative, or being a good roleplayer. I don't know if it is the CRPG influence that earlier editions didn't have to cope with, or what (because no CRPG I know gives players what they want rather than what they need unless they enter cheat codes), but the number of "Cry me a river! My DM didn't let me buy a +5 holy sword in the nearest town!" posts that EnWorld gets month after month, leads me to think that there is something very limited in the way people are encouraged to think about the game.
 

Celebrim said:
There is nothing wrong with the rules of 3.x per se. In fact, the third edition rules (3.0 moreso than 3.5) are by far the best rules set that the D&D game has ever had.

What's wrong with 3.x is not the rules, but the presentation. It's not the rules that suck, its the maturity of the advice that goes along with them. If you read the 1st edition DMG, rulewise its an absolute mess, and some of the advice EGG gives is very suspect. (In fact, he specifically mentions that thier were failures to communicate in earlier books that created problems, for example people taking too literally the random treasure charts, so its not like he's unaware of problems.) But he never treats the DM as stupid, and he's clearly writing to the DM in a 'peer to peer' tone. If you read the 3.x edition DMG, you get the impression that the writer thinks the reader is too stupid to conduct a game with the grace and elegance that the author himself most certainly does, and so instead of writing 'peer to peer', he lays down some really juvenile guidelines for how to run a campaign designed to get say a 12 year old kid up and running as a reasonable DM on his way to maturity. I suppose they working with the assumption that most DM's are head strong creative people and will eventually grow out of any stricture you lay upon them, develop house rules, homebrews, and different styles of play. But the problem with this is that 3.x is also a much more player oriented game in presentation than earlier editions (I'm fairly certain the justification for this is economic and not game value), and as a result it tends to foster DM/Player conflict. There is an increasing assumption amongst players that 'grew up' on 3rd edition that if the DM's style doesn't exactly match that of the DMG, that he's somehow 'breaking the rules'.

Witness the many posts of the sort, "If the DM gives me what my character needs, rather than what I the player want my character to have, then he's a power-tripping ego maniacal RBDM and I don't want to play with a jerk like that." It strikes me as infantile whining, but its repeatedly what I've encountered from newer players on the board and IRL.

So, for my part, I'm a huge fan of 3rd edition. I think its great. I think its alot better of an edition than any previous edition rules wise, and its basically the rules set I was trying to create with all my tweaks of earlier editions. On the other hand, I loved playing BD&D and 1st edition, and I'm not interested in an edition wars thread. To the extent that I can sympathize with the grognards that think earlier editions were a better game, I think 3rd editions sucks worse than any other edition as a guideline to running an interesting campaign, or being creative, or being a good roleplayer. I don't know if it is the CRPG influence that earlier editions didn't have to cope with, or what (because no CRPG I know gives players what they want rather than what they need unless they enter cheat codes), but the number of "Cry me a river! My DM didn't let me buy a +5 holy sword in the nearest town!" posts that EnWorld gets month after month, leads me to think that there is something very limited in the way people are encouraged to think about the game.

I like 3e, there are some things I would have designed differently, but overall it's good. And IME you are right about some of the assumptions that 3e tends to foster among players. But its up to the DM and group to find a baseline for thier game and have fun. I'm not going to have magic item shops, so I'll just have to work with that when doing the campaign.
 

Belen said:
2.) Magic shops do not exist. If you want to sell something, then you must find someone with the cash to buy it. This usually involves a lot of time gathering info and finding those involved in secret markets.
How does this look in practice? If it's players saying "we spend a lot of time gathering info and finding those involved in secret markets" and you replying "OK, you found a guy who's willing to give you 18,000 for that +1 unholy greatclub" how is it different from just walking into a "magic shop"?

If it involves actually playing out all the conversations even though nothing exciting happens, isn't it just boring?

If it involves actually playing out all the conversations and interesting stuff happens, isn't this interesting just adventuring as usual, with occasional stop to buy and sell magic items (when you finally find these secret markets)? And isn't that how it usually looks in a game where people willing to buy and sell magic aren't secret?
 

Umbran said:
I think most of us here are not going to be interested in this shifting to a partisan war aligned by edition. So everyone, please, let's not slip in that direction. While we are at it, let's remember that we should not be dismissive of each other's opinions and thoughts, okay?

Why is my statement not ok, but his sig ok?

Given that his initial statement, which is loaded with edition war type messages, why is expressing the opposite opinion not allowed? I think 1st edition was a mediocre at best designed game, with poor internal consistency. Why is he allowed to state we should look to it for inspiration, but when I state the opposite opinion, its forbidden?
 
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Agamemnon said:
You really think someone would mistake me for your sockpuppet when I've been a member here several months longer than you (slightly over five years in total)?

Go you beat by a couple of years, actually. They just deleted the account.

But tenures aside, spew is as spew does. Why should WotC slash and burn a system that's achieved success and popularity amongst gamers? You should've received a thorough ridiculing for that diatribe. Don't know what's gotten into ENWorlders recently. They're slacking off.
 
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Its all about supply and demand. Magic items that are always active, are useful 1000 times more often than others and don't take up item slots will be in much higher demand than those odd items that might be needed once in a while. Since not every Tom, Dick and Merlin can create these items, and since they cost XP to create, you shouldn't expect to find +1 sword factories churning these items out to flood the market and drive the cost way down. The result is most of those items on the "big six" should be among the more expensive items.

Another option I have been considering is the elimination of items that just provide a combat, AC or ability boost. Instead magic items would have other properties that would be the primary magical effect or effects. The combat, AC or ability enhancements would be side effects of the primary effect(s) and would scale with the power of the primary. I haven't worked out any kind of details yet, so I cannot provide them. It's just an idea I've been kicking around in my head a bit.
 

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