Andy Collins: "Most Magic Items in D&D Are Awful"

[Seeten]

No, its not necessarily a bad thing. I completely understand why they did it, both from a technical writing standpoint, and an economics standpoint. The game isn't going to last if they don't bring new blood in, and the player/user you have to write to the most is the one that has the least experience. I'm just saying that there is a cost, and I wish that they would have found the space for a few more sidebars - not so much for the DM - but for players that might be reading the DMG, so that they'd maybe understand more along the lines that this part of the game they neither have nor should want any sort of control over. Not knowing the secrets of the game and the setting, not having the same game experience with each DM, not approaching the same challenges in the same ways, and using the resources that you are presented with are big parts of enjoying the game. So many players seem to think that the game is only fun if they know the secrets of the game and the setting, if the game experience is exactly that specified by the default guidelines, if they can choose and customize thier resources however they like, and so forth. But this seems to me exactly backwards, and far more suited to the sort of 'tool tweaking/tactical gaming' experience associated with CRPGs - were roleplay is light to non-existant - than it is in face to face pen and paper gaming where the main advantage that you have over a tactical wargame or a board game or a computer game is the ability to indulge in heavy RPing.

The problem here is somehow assuming that people who want magic weapons, better ac and better saves are somehow bad roleplayers who read the DMG and the MM.

For the record, I've read the PRC's in the DMG, and the feats in the Monster books, and thats IT. I dont know the monster abilities without making my knowledge check, and I roleplay quite well, thanks.

That said, I also have more than just the first clue in what keeps a character alive. Helm of Opposite Alignment doesnt help my fort save when a Basilisk stares at me, or my will save when the Lich casts Horrid Wilting, it doesnt help me hit a dragons outrageously high AC. Magic weapons are factored into the difficulty of fighting a dragon, or a demon, and until you fight one with DR 10/Magic with a toothpick and a rusty pipe, you dont appreciate that balance. You might think it makes little difference, and then you tell you tell your players, "I'm sorry, I had no idea it'd be a TPK, stupid rules" and the players go home, muttering, "....Helm of Underwater action..."

 

[Technik4]

For the record, I've read the PRC's in the DMG, and the feats in the Monster books, and thats IT.

Helm of Opposite Alignment doesnt help my fort save when a Basilisk stares at me, or my will save when the Lich casts Horrid Wilting, it doesnt help me hit a dragons outrageously high AC.

Heh.

I think in non-module run 3e magic items aren't much of a problem because of competent DM'ing and black market magic item trade (or regular markets, for that matter). And in module-run 3e, you get an appropriate amount of treasure and usually have the same. The extremes of fighting with no magical items seem to crop up in threads like this, but not in actual d&d games...

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Given that item creation is tied into the market price, I would expect that reducing the price of non "big six" items would encourage players making, buying or questing for items outside of that group. Because their value is more accurately calculated in relation to other items, they are more likely to see use.

Good idea. Maybe the big six should cost more and the rest cost less? Factor in more than just straight mechanical effects in cost and factor in frequency of use?

 

[Seeten]

Heh.

I think in non-module run 3e magic items aren't much of a problem because of competent DM'ing and black market magic item trade (or regular markets, for that matter). And in module-run 3e, you get an appropriate amount of treasure and usually have the same. The extremes of fighting with no magical items seem to crop up in threads like this, but not in actual d&d games...

Grats on post 1337.

My barbarian was level 8 with boots of +10 survival as his only magic item. We fought a Demon with DR10/magic, and we died.

So, not only does it happen, it happened to me.

I'm a big boy, and I can make new characters, and I didnt shed a tear, but I did feel like I didnt get a fair shake, considering how and why we died.

 

[Seeten]

Heh.

I think in non-module run 3e magic items aren't much of a problem because of competent DM'ing and black market magic item trade (or regular markets, for that matter). And in module-run 3e, you get an appropriate amount of treasure and usually have the same. The extremes of fighting with no magical items seem to crop up in threads like this, but not in actual d&d games...

To get at your apparent dig at my use of monsters and there abilities, our Level 6 party lost 2 of our 3 members to petrification when a basilisk killed them. My character escaped by fleeing.

In our level 17 game, a Lich killed half the party with horrid wilting. I survived, due to being immune to death effects.

Our level 17 party also fought a red dragon. We won that one, but we won based on my magical might, not our fighters skill at arms, since he never hit the dragon in the entire fight.

I do appreciate the dig, though. Also, that level 17 game culminated in me becoming a lich, and I do frequent D&D message boards, so I've also heard that Medusa's turn people to stone, and high level mages cast disintegrate, and even that drow have spell resistance. Call me crazy.

 

[Celebrim]

The problem here is somehow assuming that people who want magic weapons, better ac and better saves are somehow bad roleplayers who read the DMG and the MM.

I don't think that that follows from what I wrote. I assume that all players, bad roleplayers and good ones, want better AC and better weapons and better saves. Naturally, you want things that increase your players survivability. What I'm pointing out as annoying to me is the demand that they recieve these things (and exactly these things), else they just aren't going to play.

For example, I'd have absolutely no problem with a DM that made magic hideously rare, so much so that a 12th level character prized his ring of +2 bonus to stealth and masterwork battleaxe. That's perfectly sane and interesting as far as I'm concerned, so long as the DM also understands that the longer such a campaign goes on, the more that it will lag magic heavy campaigns in the challenges it can cope with. But, there is nothing at all inherently wrong with not getting magic items and having to solve problems with ropes, 10' poles, small sacks, lock picks, spikes, hammers, a trusty battleaxe and your wits.

That said, I also have more than just the first clue in what keeps a character alive. Helm of Opposite Alignment doesnt help my fort save when a Basilisk stares at me, or my will save when the Lich casts Horrid Wilting, it doesnt help me hit a dragons outrageously high AC. Magic weapons are factored into the difficulty of fighting a dragon, or a demon, and until you fight one with DR 10/Magic with a toothpick and a rusty pipe, you dont appreciate that balance.

And until you are forced to fight one with little more than rusty pipe, you aren't really forced to think outside the box either. It's not incumbant on the DM to give you the tools you want to have to win the challenge. It's only incumbant on the DM to give you the tools that you need to win the challenge.

You might think it makes little difference, and then you tell you tell your players, "I'm sorry, I had no idea it'd be a TPK, stupid rules" and the players go home, muttering, "....Helm of Underwater action..."

Your complaints are directed toward entirely the wrong problem. The problem here is not that the DM decided to deprive you of magic Wal-Marts, and your prized 'big six'. It's that he presented you with a challenge that he also didn't equip you to handle. This is a problem whether or not the DM has magic Wal-Marts or hands out the 'big six' like candy. Magic Wal-Marts do not gaurantee balanced and appropriate challenges. The CR system doesn't guarantee balanced and appropriate challenges. Only a DM can do that. True, the RAW and guidelines encourage balanced an appropriate challenges and an inexperienced DM may be doing well to stick by them until he learns thier deficiencies and how to game them, and what exactly those CR numbers assume, but at no point is the problem the DM departing from the assumptions of the rules. The problem is, whether the DM stuck to the guidelines or didn't, poor DM judgment.

 

[Remathilis]

I'm sorry to threadjack, but...

Captain America will slap to death the next person who mentions 3rd Edition. Test me on this.

Well, seeing as though Captain America is dead... (http://www.comicbookbin.com/captainamerica025.html)


3rd Edition. 3rd Edition. 3rd Edition. 3rd Edition.3rd Edition.3rd Edition.3rd Edition.3rd Edition.3rd Edition.3rd Edition.3rd Edition.3rd Edition.3rd Edition.3rd Edition.3rd Edition.3rd Edition.3rd Edition.3rd Edition.3rd Edition.3rd Edition.3rd Edition.3rd Edition.3rd Edition.3rd Edition.

There, I got it off my chest. Continue with your conversation as normal...

 

[Mr. Patient]

Add me to the list of people who would like to see the classes altered to include built-in bonuses to stats, AC, etc., Iron Heroes-style, so that the Big Six become less important, or go away entirely. I think the current system is most irritating when statting up classed villains. They're almost always going to need stat-boost items to be appropriately challenging, and the end result is that the party accumulates a dozen headbands of intellect +2. It's tedious for everyone.

 

[Rolzup]

I've a simple philosophy, me: Maximize the Fun.

The key, mind you, is that one man's fun might be another man's...well, non-fun. So what worked with Gaming Group Alpha might not be viable with Gaming Group Beta.

What I've seen, though, is this: By and large, players like magic items. They like being able to get them, and quite often they have something specific to their character that they would like to obtain.

Therefore, it's in my best interests as GM to allow players to do this. Even if I myself am not altogether fond of the notion of magic shops (largely a logistical matter, although the aesthetics are part of it as well...I'm an old school AD&D DM at heart, I think), I want the PLAYERS to be able to buy magic items, if that's what they want.

I know that, as a player myself, I like being able to buy the items that strike my fancy. No matter how much it makes the DM in me wince at times. Bit of a paradox, I know, but there you have it.

 

[Deekin]

I solved this problem in my game. It was never a problem prior to 3e, so I just took away a few options and I was good to go.

1.) No item creation feats for players. Mages or Mastersmiths/crafters must devote themselves to the creation of these items.
2.) Magic shops do not exist. If you want to sell something, then you must find someone with the cash to buy it. This usually involves a lot of time gathering info and finding those involved in secret markets.
3.) If you want a specific item, then you quest for it or for someone who can make it.

As for spending their money, they are free to buy land, title, etc.

Right now I am running an artificer in an Eberron game, and I have found that the opposite also fixes magic items. Whenever I near a level, I always go flipping through books looking for situational usefully items to craft to use up the last of my craft reserve. Since the party already has maxed out big 6, I end up crafting items that you rarely see in game use, but tend to save our ass when we do need them.

There is nothing like the look on a DM's face when you pull an unexpected trick out of your hat, like a deck of illusions. I cannot count how many times that thing has saved my life.