Andy Collins: "Most Magic Items in D&D Are Awful"

[BryonD]

Personally, I wish that the game was balanced from the class side. If the Big Six are necessary to compete, then either increase the statistical progressions of the classes, or scale back the monsters.

The way I read it, that wasn't really the point.
The D&D idea is that character abilities + "correct" value of gear = appropriate power level for standard challenge. Now, I understand the Grim Tales (and other versions) take on less gear. And that is cool. But, as far as default D&D is concerned, that ain't happening.

So, the point is not that they need the big six. The point was that the bix six are the things that set the value scale and nearly everything else is way overpriced by that scale.
A 10th level character with 10th level amount of gear will be "appropriate" power level if he spends his cash in the big six. But if he spices his character up by going outside that "big six" box he pays a big price by getting a lot less power bang for his gear buck. So people tend to get the same stuff because the "cool" other things simple come at a premium that exceeds their worth.

So if they re-price other stuff so that 5,000 gp worth of "other" gives the same punch as 5,000 gp worth of big six then they have opened up the door for a much wider variety of builds. Which would be a great thing.

Whether or not they have achieved this remains to be seen.

 

[Gooba42]

There's certainly a lot of truth there. One of the only non-core magic items that sees regular use with all my characters is Complete Arcane's Vest of Resistance. Why? Because an item that costs the same as the Cloak of Resistance, but takes up the rarely-used Vest slot instead of the Cloak slot is extremely valuable to almost any class, opening up the possibility of using a more unusual Cloak instead of dedicating that slot to improving saving throws.

How is this not already fixed with the variant magic items mentioned in the core books?

Vest of Resistance, Hat of Dexterity, Amulet Of Deflection, etc. are all *very* simple substitutions...

Is this another case of lazy DMs and players who won't make their own content but then complain about everything that gets produced for them?

Don't get me wrong, I have my copy of Magic Item Compendium pre-ordered but I only started recently and I have *lots* of material to catch up on and niche bits that I honestly wouldn't think to make myself. However, I see a lot of very experienced gamers who know the game inside and out who apparently refuse to use any resource that isn't "Official".

It really seems like people are taking what, on its own, is an open-ended and very creative game and pigeonholing themselves by refusing to be creative.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

The way I read it, that wasn't really the point.
The D&D idea is that character abilities + "correct" value of gear = appropriate power level for standard challenge.

So, the point is not that they need the big six. The point was that the bix six are the things that set the value scale and nearly everything else is way overpriced by that scale.

D&D is definitely balanced to include, not just "correct value of gear," but "correct gear."

In my opinion, there's just no way to balance a helm of comprehend languages, a folding boat, and Murlynd's Spoon against the Big Six-- no matter how much you reduce their value. There are certain kinds of items/abilities for which you could reduce their cost to nearly nothing, lump them all together in the aggregate into a Heward's Handy Haversack, and they still won't be balanced against a +5 sword.

Let me amend that somewhat. There's no way the the upcoming Compendium is going to tackle that balance issue. That's a big problem inherent to the d20 System. "Stuff" that gives you big, chunky, discreet d20 bonuses is infinitely more valuable just by nature of the System.

Even within the statistical bonus items there's a pecking order: attack and damage; AC; saving throws; skill bonuses.

A 10th level character with 10th level amount of gear will be "appropriate" power level if he spends his cash in the big six. But if he spices his character up by going outside that "big six" box he pays a big price by getting a lot less power bang for his gear buck. So people tend to get the same stuff because the "cool" other things simple come at a premium that exceeds their worth.

So if they re-price other stuff so that 5,000 gp worth of "other" gives the same punch as 5,000 gp worth of big six then they have opened up the door for a much wider variety of builds. Which would be a great thing.

Whether or not they have achieved this remains to be seen.

My supposition is that the System isn't granular enough to handle this kind of rebalancing. Not only would you have to reduce the monetary costs of these items to near nothing, you'd have to reduce their opportunity costs as well in order to fit them into the Encounter framework.

It doesn't matter if you can get 10 or 20 "lesser" items to add up to one of the Big Six-- you won't have enough time within round or even the Encounter to use them.

EDIT: To put it another way, the "cost" of the Big Six is measured on a scale inside the Combat Round and the Encounter. Certain other kinds of magic items can't be measured on that scale, because they are non-combat or extremely situational. It's apples and oranges and they simply can't be balanced against each other. You can't even measure Murlynd's Spoon against a magic sword, let alone balance them.

Rebalancing D&D, from the top down, against the Combat Round and the Encounter seems to be one of the big problems they are tackling right now.

 

[I'm A Banana]

My supposition is that the System isn't granular enough to handle this kind of rebalancing. Not only would you have to reduce the monetary costs of these items to near nothing, you'd have to reduce their opportunity costs as well in order to fit them into the Encounter framework.

It's impossible to make it perfect in the system as-is, but it's entirely possible to alleviate the problem enough so that it's not really a problem anymore.

 

[Tzeentch]

In addition to the amazing adventuring backpack, I've yet to see a DM say anything about the penny-pinching adventurers who are happy eating "Rations, Trail" for months or years.

Amazingly, for all its inherent munchkinism, I think this is one area where the Everquest d20 game did well -- magic items have their bonuses spread out into far more discrete types that cuts down on the uver-generalist nature of things like the ever-common "+3 longsword."

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

It's impossible to make it perfect in the system as-is, but it's entirely possible to alleviate the problem enough so that it's not really a problem anymore.

I'd attack it in one of two ways:

1) The quirky/fluffy stuff is paid for in a currency completely seperate from the Big Six (and associated items)

2) The quirky/fluffy stuff is... just free.

 

[Baumi]

What I really like in the new companion is the rule that you can easily stack the Attribute Bonuses and Resistances to other Magic Items. For example you could now create a Hat of Disguise that also give you +4 Int or use a Cloak of Elvenkind that give you Resistance bonuses ... so you can have the cool/interesting effects in ADDITION to the "necessary" but boring Stat-Boosts!

 

[MerricB]

I think we'll probably see some of the "Big Six" abilities being granted by other items... and the other items having abilities that are granted to the Big Six.

We've already seen one take on it: the augment crystals.

EDIT: And I seem to be right.

I'm surprised that the big six is missing bags of holding or other such devices.

I'm surprised you didn't read the next paragraph of the article. "Throw in a few more common items, such as the bag of holding, boots of striding and springing (though the “springing” part’s wasted on most folks), maybe a metamagic rod or two, a smattering of easily forgotten potions and scrolls, and of course the omnipresent wands of cure light wounds—and you’ve probably covered 80% or more of the average PC’s gear list."

A bag of holding is mostly a non-item. Once you have it, that's it. You're not continually upgrading it, or paying attention to it, or spending most of your money on it, as you are with the Big Six.

Cheers!

 

[blargney the second]

Wow, did I read the same article?

Yep, you did.

Most magic items in D&D are awful. Almost every book has a few of these stinkers—and some of them are chock-full.

He's putting down the work that other people did to design, develop, edit, and even purchase previous products. I don't think he's wrong about items being badly costed, but it doesn't make his current project better by lambasting what came before.

-blarg

 

[MerricB]

He's putting down the work that other people did to design, develop, edit, and even purchase previous products. I don't think he's wrong about items being badly costed, but it doesn't make his current project better by lambasting what came before.

Given that Andy's done more than a little of that design himself, he's putting himself down as well. He's well within his rights to do so... and if other designers can't handle the fact that their magic items were awful, they shouldn't be working on D&D.

Would you prefer that the MIC didn't come out, and the designers kept their hands over their eyes singing "La la la"? See Palladium for that sort of game.