Andy Collins: "Most Magic Items in D&D Are Awful"

[Greegan75]

Exactly. I've been playing D&D for a long time and this is a huge trend I've seen in recent years. Most of the "problems" people talk about can be easily fixed, in game, by a DM. But too many anally retentive people follow every little stat or set of numbers in official books just so they can complain about "problems" or "errors". If you notice a problem...CHANGE IT, and keep right on playing. That's the power you have as a DM. If you're so uncreative that you can't handle that, maybe you shouldn't be a DM at all.

I couldn't agree more with this post. Hell, it forced me out of lurking.

 

[Ace]

I did this in FFZ by linking these bonuses directly to character advancement: everybody gains +x to hit, to damage, to saves, to ability scores, etc. as they level up, so you don't need to buy magic items to give you this boost. Instead, magic items are more interesting.

I did this also and it works quite well.

My layout is a bit different as it assumes a few minor items might be picked up along the way.

I agree with the notion that unless you as DM spice up the items they are boring. The big 6 are especially dull -- mechanical bonuses are a snooze when compared to A Holocaust Cloak --

Items need names, identities and purposes otherwise they are just pieces of kit.

The kit approach iss workable but hardly fantastic. In fairness some folks like Tom Clancy's Lord of the Rings. I don't and I assume a lot of D&Drs don't so I cooked up rules

I've posted these before (in the low items thread) but here goes again.


Levels 2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20 +1 to a stat -- this covers booster books and the basic level up

saves +1 at 4,8,12,16,20 -- covers for vest or cloak

AC bonus 75% of BAB -- this means a level 20 fighter would have an AC of 37 in plate and shield (heavy shields get an extra +1 to AC)with a 12 dex-- this is roughly 3 below what an optimized core fighter would have and its easily made up for with


Extra feats 1 fat @1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19

and for good measure +2 to all skills

To be at par with core a PC needs a stat boost item (like a belt or whatever) and a magic weapon or two (or wand or whatever) and maybe a ring or something cool -- thats it

 

[charlesatan]

I'm sure it's better for WotC's bottom line this way but honestly I'd love to see them focus on mechanics rather than implementations.

Don't sell us soulmelds, give us an Incarnum workbook, a couple examples and directions how to make soulmelds.

Don't sell us vestiges, give us a Binding workbook, a couple examples and directions how to make vestiges.

They done that already in their respective books. Weapons of Legacy for example has mechanics on how to "build" your own Legacy Weapons. Even the DMG has formulas for creating magic items. The rest are simply that -- examples.

 

[Psion]

Even the hallowed Dungeon Master’s Guide is no exception; when’s the last time your character thought seriously about shelling out 23,500 gp for a rod of enemy detection, or a whopping fifty-seven thousand gold pieces for a helm of underwater action?

Allow me to emphasize where I feel the problem lies here:

shelling out

To me, the stinky magic items are the "top six". The are stale and predictable precisely because the assumption is there that they are free for the buying and players perceive (rightly or wrongly) that these are the items worth buying. AFAIAC, campaign that entertain such an open buying philosophy head right down this rut.

 

[2WS-Steve]

I do pretty much allow my players to head back to Ptolus and do a little Wal-marting of magic items (at least those in the main books). I figure the item sets you give your character are part of the fun of building a character.

Regardless, I think pointing to the magic item marketplace as being the problem is a red herring. If you don't allow buying and selling, you simply make item crafting feats and item crafting classes such as wizards, clerics, and druids even more valuable than they already are.

 

[Celebrim]

Bonuses to AC and ability scores don't faze me. Nor do the attack and damage bonuses from magic weapons. What distresses me is a campaign where all characters can fly, teleport, turn invisible and/or ethereal at will, and otherwise acquire magical superpowers that allow PC's to simply ignore physical challenges placed in their path.

Bingo. And don't underestimate the power of physics bending objects like the ubiquitous HHH.

Yep, a simple point that many would do well to make note of. Money's worthless if there's nothing to spend it on.

I've never had magic items available for sale above the level of potions and scrolls, and I've never had a problem with characters finding things to do with thier wealth.

Frankly, I think if you follow D&D's standard treasure assumptions (as established back in 1e) then there's absolutely no reason WHY a lucrative market wouldn't spring up around the acquiring and selling of magical items.

There are lucrative markets around the buying selling of F-18's and nuclear weapon technology too, but they aren't exactly the easiest markets to break into if you happen to be well, just about anyone. My assumption has always been that there is essentially infinite demand for magic items, but essentially zero supply because the major brokers of power try to horde magic items for thier exclusive use. So, you can always find a major religion, nobleman, or government that wants to add to thier collection, but you can almost never find someone willing to sell a magic item that they own any more than you can normally find people who'd willingly sell thier own XP. This is actually pretty easy to justify. If you dry the market up, what you'll discover is that PC's don't sell magic items that they could reasonably at any point in the future have a use for, because they recognize that such items are essentially irreplacible. You'll also notice that high level characters that can produce high level magic items are rare, and when they do make something its for thier own use or the use of a close ally. How do we know that? Because that's exactly how the PC's operate. Moreover, if you assume a living system, then no one really wants to put magic items on the open market because everyone knows that if you put it on an open market there is a very good chance that that item will come back in the hands of an enemy. Try this excercise. Every time the PC's sell an item on an open market (open meaning that they are selling it to someone who is acting as a distributer), dice for the chance that the item is purchased by one of the sinister organizations that the PC's are up against. Then, if the PC's get unlucky or just stupid, add that item to the enemies wealth above and beyond thier CR. Doesn't take much time for your average PC party to realize that selling the +2 unholy flail to that merchant they met was maybe a bad idea - tidy profit or not. So, my assumption is that all the markets for magic items are basically closed ones, and would only be available to the PC's if they had a close alliance with a major broker of power.

And speaking of, just what do you think PC's in my experience tend to do with thier money?

 

[Andor]

Well it's kind of an annoying article frankly. He's right that most non-combat items are massively over-priced. What he fails to mention is that was clearly a deliberate design decision in 3.5 ed. Go compare the 3.5 prices to the 3.0 prices. Allmost all the movement utility items had their durations reduced and costs increased in 3.5.

Frankly using cash as a level balance mechanic is a deeply flawed. If I were to have one bit of input into the 4ed design process it's this: Chuck the exponential prices increases, a linear or moderate geometric progression is fine, if you also include a level based activation mechanic to the items. Then you can include the obvious yet needed discussion about how to adjust these levels to the needs of your campaign. This removes most of the stupidity from the D&D economy, and adds some nifty possibilities. For example if a magic sword activates gradually then you have self-scaling items. EG- A +3 flametounge long sword may be a +1 sword in the hands of a 1st level character. A +1 flaming sword in the hands of a 3rd level character and so on untill it's full powers are available at 9th level. It also allows for the big dramatic face off with the BBG if a PC can briefly activate a magic item over his level for some appropriate cost such as an action point or some ability drain.

Personally I find the price/ability structuring of D&D magic to be very annoying. Combat centered stuff is usually reasonably priced, with the occasional flyer, but utility stuff is completely out of whack. It makes me wonder what the heck a non-adventuring mage does. He has almost no abilites useful outside of combat that last for more than a moment or two. It's as though you could buy a flame thrower for $200 but that cell phone is gonna cost more than your house. And God help you if you want to go scuba diving.

 

[Celebrim]

Well it's kind of an annoying article frankly. He's right that most non-combat items are massively over-priced. What he fails to mention is that was clearly a deliberate design decision in 3.5 ed. Go compare the 3.5 prices to the 3.0 prices.

Well, because that would force them to concede the fact that for the most part, despite all the good intentions, 3.5 is an inferior game to 3.0. The first thing I think should happen on the way to 4e is kick back most of the 3.5 changes and make another try at it.

 

[hong]

Well it's kind of an annoying article frankly. He's right that most non-combat items are massively over-priced. What he fails to mention is that was clearly a deliberate design decision in 3.5 ed. Go compare the 3.5 prices to the 3.0 prices. Allmost all the movement utility items had their durations reduced and costs increased in 3.5.

I don't think the _movement_ utility items are the ones they were dissing....

 

[charlesatan]

Frankly using cash as a level balance mechanic is a deeply flawed. If I were to have one bit of input into the 4ed design process it's this: Chuck the exponential prices increases, a linear or moderate geometric progression is fine, if you also include a level based activation mechanic to the items. Then you can include the obvious yet needed discussion about how to adjust these levels to the needs of your campaign. This removes most of the stupidity from the D&D economy, and adds some nifty possibilities. For example if a magic sword activates gradually then you have self-scaling items. EG- A +3 flametounge long sword may be a +1 sword in the hands of a 1st level character. A +1 flaming sword in the hands of a 3rd level character and so on untill it's full powers are available at 9th level. It also allows for the big dramatic face off with the BBG if a PC can briefly activate a magic item over his level for some appropriate cost such as an action point or some ability drain.

It was partially remedied in Weapons of Legacy (and one of the prestige classes in Unearthed Arcana) since hindsight is indeed 20/20 (and IMO I think 3.5 is really only 3.5 as of late thanks to new concepts like swift/immediate actions, substitution levels, etc.) although I expect it'll be somehow incorporated at some later date (i.e. when 4th Ed finally comes out).

Personally I find the price/ability structuring of D&D magic to be very annoying. Combat centered stuff is usually reasonably priced, with the occasional flyer, but utility stuff is completely out of whack. It makes me wonder what the heck a non-adventuring mage does. He has almost no abilites useful outside of combat that last for more than a moment or two. It's as though you could buy a flame thrower for $200 but that cell phone is gonna cost more than your house. And God help you if you want to go scuba diving.

The problem with the other utility magic items is that their use varies from campaign to campaign. Look at Dungeonscape: the book has a section devoted to magic items that are great in dungeons and whose applications aren't always as obvious (dust of absorption, bag of tricks, etc.). The strength there is that they have uses. The problem is that it's limited to a dungeon setting (imagine bringing a 10-foot pole to an underwater environment).