Andy Collins: "Most Magic Items in D&D Are Awful"

[Celebrim]

No, no, by "you" you mean "I" as opposed to "one" or "we", yes?

No. 'You' can mean alot of different people, but when I say 'you', 'you' doesn't mean me.

No, no. "If my world is one in which I am comfortable with magic items being treated as commodities, to be freely bought, sold and traded, then I am being really disingenuous to complain about the fact that they are treated as commodities".

See, that makes MUCH more sense.

If it wasn't you speaking, I'd wonder who you were arguing with or what you were trying to say. But since it is you, I just put it down to you trying to be cute and failing this time.

Piffle. He simply acted to fix the problems.

Fitting don't you think, since his name is on the document that created them? I also find it interesting how that problem you say I have, you say is no longer my problem when you stumble over your next sentence. Figure out where the problem is, then your jokes might actually hit the target.

Tell me why I should care a whit about "officialness".

Care? Why would I want you to care? I believe you'd see once you got the piffle out of your eye that I wasn't elevating 'official' above anything else, and was in my own fashion being as sarky about it as you. Only, my sarkiness wouldn't make into my official seven sentence NPC, unlike some other more famous comedians here.

 

[el-remmen]

But that has nothing to do with the point.

It has everything to do with the point. It is all the "economy of magic items" I ever need, and I am glad that it allows me to ignore what appears to be a headache to players and DMs alike from how often this comes topic comes up.

 

[RedFox]

My work-around for buying magic items is that I require the PCs to commission them - so they have to wait 1 day per 1000 gp to have them made. Assuming they can find someone to make the item in question.

Cheers!

Oh, this I rather like. If nothing else, just to avoid the "let's loot the magic shop!" scenario.

I may have magic shops have an "on hand" limit about 1/10th (Maybe I'll tweak that. S'just off the top of my head.) the gp limit of the city that they're located in, too. It seems unreasonable to expect nothing to be on-hand at Gargool the Great's Imporium of Wonders, after-all...

But unless you actually roleplay all that down time it actually makes no effective difference than walking into the town and picking it up from the first merchant you come across.

Time taken is rarely a useful balancing factor in RPGs since the players just say "Fine we wait until it is ready." To roleplay out that would be like roleplaying out every single day of a three month sea voyage to Farshore, after awhile of reporting on the weather and players going "are we there yet?" you just focus on the encounters that matters.

It can alleviate the "why don't we just loot the magic shop?" problem, and it can also serve as a bit of verisimilitude. Not every decision has to be made purely for concerns of play-balance.

It makes a difference if you're one of those who whinge about PCs going from incompetent to demigod in 6 weeks.

It also makes a difference if you're one of those who whinge about PCs being able to walk into a shop and buy anything they want. In particular, adventures might happen while you're waiting for your item to be finished.

The fact that real-time isn't expended is irrelevant, just as you don't bother playing out the 8 hours of rest that the wiz needs to prepare spells. It's a flavour thing, where you say "let's pretend that our characters, who exist only in our heads anyway, have to spend several weeks waiting for X to happen rather than having everything they want occur at the drop of a coin".

Precisely.

 

[Remathilis]

1,500gp Piece of jewelry to bribe female guild head to meet for dinner
OR Brooch of Shielding (absorbs 101 points of magic missile damage from evil mages)

25gp Vellum invitation to female guild head.
OR Divine Scroll of Cure Light Wounds (to heal your buddy dropped into negatives)

250gp Renting a carriage big enough for 8, with show horses and gilded carriage.
OR Potion of Enlarge Person (to deal properly with those oncoming fire giants)

500gp Hiring temporary retainers for carriage
OR Elixir of Truth (for interogating the orc guards on where the captives are hiding)

2,500gp Shimmer-silk mage robes
OR Cloak of the Elvenkind (+5 to hide checks against the ogre guardian)

5,500gp New jewelry.
OR +1 glamered Full Plate (useful for sneaking into the queen's ball in the latest attire while watching for assassins)

150gp New hairstyle
OR Arcane Scoll of Eagle's Splendor (great for diplomacy checks AND boosting the sorcerer's Charm Person DCs)

100gpbribe to maitre-de to get seats.
OR Two vials of Universal Solvent (to stop the devious trap Xaxor the Mad used on his sanctum's door)

3,500gp 350 year old Elven Wine
OR Dust of Disappearance (to keep the rogue safe while exploring the Tomb of Amon Rul)

14,500gp Red Dragon Steaks, exotic fruits and vegetables, exotic special order dessert.
OR +2 Adamantine Breastplate (to keep the barbarian safe against the Frost Giant Jarl)

200gp Doorman bribe at Inn of the Painted Lady
OR Arcane Scroll of Silence (to protect against the harpies of the Juun Pass)

1,900gp for Female Guild Head to "indulge herself"
OR A Quiver of Ehlonna (for keeping those silver, adamantine, and cold iron arrows ready)

200gp for 2 glasses of exotic brandy while waiting on Female Guild Head
OR Four Potions of Cure Light Wounds (to keep your allies from a TPK against the Barghest)

What kind of D&D world is this? 150 gp for a haircut? 200 gp bribes for doormen? 25 GP for PAPER? How much does a longsword cost; 10,000 gp? Plate mail for a cool million gold? Jeez, I bet Rope is 10gp/foot!

 

[MerricB]

Yes, rings of protection were more or less an armor enhancement. Only the most powerful and rare ones gave bonuses to saving throws. I never had one that did in 15 years or so of play.

I think you'll find that the default did both, but there were some rings that had different values for AC and save bonuses.

Cheers!

 

[painandgreed]

Some thoughts on this stuff,

I don't think you can really get rid of the basic seven (because magic bags are just as much of a demanded item and more so than half those items to many players) unless you play low magic or low level and limit those things. Even then, if the PCs can get the feats to make those magic items, they will. Those are simply the main items that are needed in combat which is a large part of this game.

If you want player to pay attention to other items, then the other items have to be used. One thing that became obvious to me in the last game I was in that made it to 13th level or so, is that mind sheilding devices are a must for kings, wizards, politicians, merchants, and just about anybody with a decent amount of money and power. If they didn't exist, bluff and diplomacy would quickly be worthless, plans couldn't be kept, secrets wouldn't exist, and intrigue would always fail. In a world of scrying magic users, mind reading monsters, lie decerning clerics, and detecting paladins, defences to protect your secrets becomes pretty valuable fairly quickly. I've seen that one clever succubus could quickly unhinge civilization if the people in power weren't protected though a savage species campaign. Similarly, other segments of civilization will have different requirements. Around ports and coasts, water breathing and swimming items will probably be very common amoung the NPCs at least. If you want PCs to use other things besides combat items, then pose those other conditions as threats to the PCs. In a sea going campaign, see how much they value a swimming trinket if they have to make an effective save or die roll not to get washed off the deck into the ocean during a storm. If in the mountains or desert, pull out the environment rules and start making them fear killing cold, heat, or dehydration. Once the PCs are faced with a need for items other than the basic seven, you'll see them obtain them.

One thing that is hard to do, and you sort of have to let the PCs do it on their own, are all the minor items that would be in big demand that players never buy because they don't actually have to live those lives. Magic items that made decent tasting food, cloaks that keep the wearer warm and dry magically, items that make you appear clean and well kept. The clever DM could add in lots of misc modifiers here and there which might make the PCs want them, otherwise they're just sort of flavor items even though lots would exist in any world where they could be made.

But still, I have issues with saying that changing the price is an option to bringing these items into use. By that, they're saying the prices weren't properly blanaced to begin with, and it still won't matter because they'll still buy the big seven because they still won't need those other items. If they never needed a wand of enemy detection at 23.5k, they're still not going to need one at 12k. If the prices were balanced, and you lower them, trust me when I say that some enterprising soul WILL exploit the new price. They'll yank out those wands of enemy detection and blow the entire adventure path in the first session as they wander around town preforming sting operations to find out who is behind everything and skip the big dungeon dwelve to uncover the identities of the evil clerics.

 

[bowbe]

No more than towns are mundane item Wal-Marts because we don't roleplay out every individual transaction there, either.

Respectfully Snipped.

I for one Role Play EVERY single indivdual transaction in my encounter laden local Wally World "Discount" store.

Gm in my Mind: "After finding an item that was supposedly on sale locked in a "theft protection case" you notice 5 red-jacketed "Senior Sales ASSociates" congregated around a "help" kiosk. What do you do?"

Me: "I carefully approach the kiosk, attempting to make eye contact with the senior Sales Associates" and proclaim "Excuse me, I need some Nicorette, but it's all locked up. Do any of you fine people have a key which would unlock the item which I have a $5 dollar off coupon for?"

Reality: The associates eye one another shiftily, two proclaim that they are on break and take a double move to the "employees only break area". A third looks to the fourth and the fourth looks to the fifth, before the fifth replies "I'm sorry, the manager is out, and he is the only one with the key to that...what was it you wanted?"

Me (in my mind): Ooh the blood doth boil, wroth and gall fill my throat, I wish only to reach for the rubber mallet in my shopping cart and beat these three goons into rightous submission, if only some magic could make these knaves understand my need and desire to purchase this item of my desire...

Me: Out loud, and quite obviously...draw forth the only magic which modern might has attained, brandish my trusty cellular phone and dial 411 send. It rings, I put it on speaker phone...so that the knaves can here

They "What are you doing sir?"

Me: Excuse me, 411, yes I would like the managers number for Wal-mart in ******, located at *****

They: Scatter like leaves in the wind.

Me, calling after them: "Don't worry, I memorized your name badges, have a nice day and thank you for helping me at Wal-mart"

411 Operator: Your call is connecting bla bla bla... phone connects, ... bla bla bla if you would like to speak with an operator please stay on the line....bla bla bla


5 Minutes later: The manager is summoned as if by magic to my exact location, bowing and scraping voiciferously as the power of my summoning is enhanced by my feats "Cut the BS" and "The Customer is Always Right" and my Nicorette is happily in my cart and I am on to the next adventure.


"The Checkout Line"

If you can't have fun and RP at Wal-mart... why worry about overpriced or over-powered magic items. Your the DM. Give em what for baby!

Case

 

[painandgreed]

What kind of D&D world is this? 150 gp for a haircut? 200 gp bribes for doormen? 25 GP for PAPER? How much does a longsword cost; 10,000 gp? Plate mail for a cool million gold? Jeez, I bet Rope is 10gp/foot!

One that probably mirrors the real world. Look at even some of the prices in the real world, let alone the costs of past nobles and aristocracy. Nobles spend money.* If you want to hob nob with them, let alone be one, you'll have to spend money also. Show up at a gambling hall to try and meet some big with with an ale house hooker and your 'good' pair of adventuring clothes rather than a well paid cortesean who can hold her own in a conversation and make you the envy of other men and a 10,000 GP outfit made with spun gold and pearls, and you probably won't even get in the door. Of course, a real adventurer will be going there to make a deal or gain information that will make him money back, but I don't think the prices for quality items are something that really bears criticism if one is trying to be a high roller.

*Which in itself is a type of defense mechanism. If they spend money and require all those around them to spend money also, they not only have a judge of the persons wealth and abilty by how they spend their money, but they also weed out all those who can't and there fore have nothing to offer. Otherwise, they'd be constantly surrounded by people who want things of them while pretending to be equals.

 

[hong]

No. 'You' can mean alot of different people, but when I say 'you', 'you' doesn't mean me.

No, but you do mean "I" even if you don't know it. Trust me, I'm a statistician.

If it wasn't you speaking, I'd wonder who you were arguing with or what you were trying to say. But since it is you, I just put it down to you trying to be cute and failing this time.

Yes, yes, that's what they all say.

Fitting don't you think, since his name is on the document that created them?

If it stops people complaining, then hey, I'm all for it. Not that that's likely to happen, since complaining for its own sake is one of the purest forms of self-expression that can be found.

I also find it interesting how that problem you say I have, you say is no longer my problem when you stumble over your next sentence. Figure out where the problem is, then your jokes might actually hit the target.

Stumbling into incoherence is we. Are we? Am us?

Care? Why would I want you to care?

Ah, so in other words, you were just talking to hear yourself speak! I have figured out your CUNNING PLAN, "Celebrim", if that IS your REAL PANSY ELF NAME!

I believe you'd see once you got the piffle out of your eye that I wasn't elevating 'official' above anything else, and was in my own fashion being as sarky about it as you. Only, my sarkiness wouldn't make into my official seven sentence NPC, unlike some other more famous comedians here.

Geez, if you just wanted to say that I do this better than you, why not just come out and say it.

WHY DO I HAVE TO DO ALL THE THINKING AROUND HERE?

 

[Charwoman Gene]

Trust me, I'm a statistician.

Wow, that's only slightly less ironic than "Trust me, I'm a Politician."