D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

I mean, it kind of fits the profile. People are guessing that Asian people are more often immigrants than Caucasians because we currently have a lot of Asian immigrants and relatively few Caucasians. In my work at a public K-12 I've definitely encountered a lot of first generation Asian immigrants in the past 10 years than previously, although in my area there seem to be a lot more Filipino immigrants than anything. That doesn't mean the question can't be rude, but it is understandable why someone might assume an Asian is more likely to be an immigrant.
I avoid the question because I have had friends tell me that it makes them feel that they do not belong. I am an immigrant myself and I had a picture of me and my staff ages ago where I was the only non-Asian in the picture. I was the only non-American in the picture. When I saw it, I realized what others looking at our lunch table would assume and I was the person with only a green card (that I obtained by marrying a US citizen, I originally had a work visa).

Usually, if you build a relationship, people will tell you their family history if relevant. And my Asian languages are pretty poor (I only do English and French well) but they are not so poor that I cannot recognize Korean, Mandarin, Tagalog, Thai and Japanese common words. So if there are speaking English, I cannot guess. But if they switch into an Asian language I can identify words and figure it out. I still do not mention it. I am doomed with dialects and there are some many in Asia.
 

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Companies absolutely have the right to publish what they want. But there are still moral questions around that. Particularly if you have a company perfectly content to publish something people want to buy, and a group uses a social media campaign to pressure them to stop publishing it. That can have a huge impact on what content is available.

So... you are effectively arguing that WotC has a moral obligation to control its speech... in the way you want them to. This seems in general form exactly the same as those saying they need to take it down. You both are trying to press an obligation on WotC. It is just that one is for up, the other is down.

And even if there is no pressure, when a publisher has an important work of any kind

I think it is a long, long stretch to call a supplement for a luxury entertainment game 30 years gone, "an important work."

I think there are moral considerations there if that decision will make that work less available to the public.

Never since the creation of the printing press has a publisher had an obligation to keep works in print. Yes, it is a bummer - but it is not the publisher's job to save you from all bummers.

And, quite frankly, this flies in the face of that whole "freedom of expression for the creator" stuff. This "moral consideration" has been brought up several times in these discussions, in different forms. What it really amounts to is a statement that the public is entitled to the work (on some moral grounds), once published. That you have a right to someone's speech, even if they don't want to speak!

Needless to say, as a moral argument, that makes little sense.
 

Undrave

Legend
Perhaps if I re-explain to you, yet again, that my personal experiences with people using private means of censorship and pressure when it came to issues that affected the gay and trans community for decades has made me incredibly hostile to further attempts at such censorship and pressure, no matter how cloaked in good intentions it might be?

Yeah, I can see why you're not keen on the idea considering how censorship has been used as a bludgeoning tool to deny the humanity and reality of certain groups... I don't think this is quite the same case but I get where you're coming from for sure.
 

Undrave

Legend
And, quite frankly, this flies in the face of that whole "freedom of expression for the creator" stuff. This "moral consideration" has been brought up several times in these discussions, in different forms. What it really amounts to is a statement that the public is entitled to the work (on some moral grounds), once published. That you have a right to someone's speech, even if they don't want to speak!

Needless to say, as a moral argument, that makes little sense.

Or entitled to it for cheap, considering the complaint that the original printing are going up in price on eBay while the Pdf is only 5$...
 


DammitVictor

Trust the Fungus
Supporter
Until recently, I took it as a truism that Asian-Americans being offended by things that Asian nationals didn't care about was some kind of condemnation of our "outrage culture". It took me an embarrassingly long time to recognize-- in accordance with my own worldview-- that people who react differently to the same stimuli are operating under different environmental pressures.

That doesn't mean they're always right... but it does mean that their feelings need to be considered in light of their own circumstances, rather than in the light of different people living different lives.

Just like I can recognize that someone isn't always right and that some of their concerns are not valid... without dismissing that sometimes, they have a point.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Until recently, I took it as a truism that Asian-Americans being offended by things that Asian nationals didn't care about was some kind of condemnation of our "outrage culture". It took me an embarrassingly long time to recognize-- in accordance with my own worldview-- that people who react differently to the same stimuli are operating under different environmental pressures.

So, I was watching a foodie-show, "Taste the Nation" a couple nights ago, and the episode title was "What is Chop Suey Anyway?" And it noted that the cultural experience of Chinese-Americans is completely different from the cultural experience of Chinese folks living in mainland China. Chinese-Americans live embedded in a culture with a dominant caucasian majority, while those in mainland China don't. Different experiences and perspectives, so one cannot be used as a proxy for the other.
 

So... you are effectively arguing that WotC has a moral obligation to control its speech... in the way you want them to. This seems in general form exactly the same as those saying they need to take it down. You both are trying to press an obligation on WotC. It is just that one is for up, the other is down.

Answering quickly because about to work out (so if any of this sounds curt, it isn't meant to be).

This isn't what I am trying to say here. I am saying there are moral questions around free expression and access for them to consider here. I am not saying what that conclusion has to be. But I do think the second part of your answer "You both are trying to press an obligation on WotC" helps make my point that people pressuring WOTC to take it down are controlling speech. After all if you think someone pressuring them to keep it up is someone saying they have an obligation to control speech how they want, them surely someone pressuring them to take it down is also doing the same thing.



I think it is a long, long stretch to call a supplement for a luxury entertainment game 30 years gone, "an important work."

To be clear here, I was not calling it an important work of literature or anything like that. Outside the hobby, our books are pretty much unknown. But within the hobby, sure it is an important book (at least I think you can make a good case that it is). I don't think importance is the only consideration here though. I was talking about importance works because of the general principle and how this pressure technique, if it can be applied to OA, can also be applied to something like the Godfather (which is an important work).



Never since the creation of the printing press has a publisher had an obligation to keep works in print. Yes, it is a bummer - but it is not the publisher's job to save you from all bummers.

Again, I am not saying they have an obligation to keep a work in print. I am saying they have an obligation to consider the morality of printing or not printing it. This is especially true when they are stewards of someone else's work (as is the case with OA), and simply hold the rights to it (because them sitting on the rights and not publishing it, when there are lots of people out there who might want the book or might want to publish it, raises issues of access to it). When you are a publisher you have power over what people can read when you hold the rights to something. That isn't a morally neutral thing. Does it mean they have a legal obligation to publish it? No, of course not. But I do think this is a much more complicated issue of free expression, access to media, etc than people are making it out to be. And I think they would see that if they inserted other works rather than OA into this as hypotheticals.

And, quite frankly, this flies in the face of that whole "freedom of expression for the creator" stuff. This "moral consideration" has been brought up several times in these discussions, in different forms. What it really amounts to is a statement that the public is entitled to the work (on some moral grounds), once published. That you have a right to someone's speech, even if they don't want to speak!

Needless to say, as a moral argument, that makes little sense.

Again, they can make this decision. But we can voice our opinion about the decision. And I am not talking about rights here. I said explicitly this isn't a 1st amendment violation. That doesn't mean it isn't censorship if a publisher who is otherwise happy to publish something, removes a book from publication because a group of people use social media to pressure them to do so. It isn't the government coming in and taking away peoples ability to see the material, but it is using other levers of power to help achieve a very similar result.

Also, very importantly, this isn't WOTC's speech. This is not a book they originally published or wrote. It is a book they have the rights to. Can they choose not to publish it? Yes. They can absolutely do so. Should they choose not to publish it? My feeling is that deprives people of a book they should have access to. In the grand scale of things it is fairly minor. It isn't like they are plunging some monumental work of literature into darkness. But bit by bit, this kind of thing does matter. And in the hobby at least, it matters. And it is okay for people to voice their opinion about it.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
To be clear here, I was not calling it an important work of literature or anything like that. Outside the hobby, our books are pretty much unknown. But within the hobby, sure it is an important book (at least I think you can make a good case that it is). I don't think importance is the only consideration here though. I was talking about importance works because of the general principle and how this pressure technique, if it can be applied to OA, can also be applied to something like the Godfather (which is an important work).

I am just going to address this, again. The act of assigning a value as to what is, and isn't, important is notoriously fraught, and is almost always used in a manner by people who will attempt to suppress speech and art by labeling things they don't agree with as "unimportant."

Just think about it for a second; comics are for kids, not important (until they became ... graphic novels?). That was an age-old argument. "Genre" works (books, TV, film) aren't "real art" - because "everyone knows" that Science Fiction, or Fantasy, or Horror, or (insert disfavored category here) isn't real art.

Underground camp classics? Anything from Rocky Horror, to Showgirls, to the Room? Not important, right?

The Perks of Being a Wallflower? That's just a trashy YA novel, right? Beyond Magenta is a book that people are still banning, both explicitly and sub silentio, saying that its not important.

What is an "important work" to one person, is trash to another. Best not to use those categories when determining what to support,
 

Aldarc

Legend
Also, very importantly, this isn't WOTC's speech. This is not a book they originally published or wrote. It is a book they have the rights to. Can they choose not to publish it? Yes. They can absolutely do so. Should they choose not to publish it? My feeling is that deprives people of a book they should have access to. In the grand scale of things it is fairly minor. It isn't like they are plunging some monumental work of literature into darkness. But bit by bit, this kind of thing does matter. And in the hobby at least, it matters. And it is okay for people to voice their opinion about it.
And therein is both the rub and the personal assumption! So why "should" people have access to this book?
 

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