D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Civil fraud is listed on Wikipedia as:
  1. Somebody misrepresents a material fact in order to obtain action or forbearance by another person;
  2. The other person relies upon the misrepresentation; and
  3. The other person suffers injury as a result of the act or forbearance taken in reliance upon the misrepresentation.
Even if there's not way to win the cases, that's what a bunch of the media and politicians do all the time about scientific things.

You have to prove that they knew it was false. They could believe what they say. Then you have to prove that they wanted you to rely upon it, rather than just telling you what they think. Then they have to rely on it. Then they have to suffer damages, and being misinformed isn't a damage.

It kind of feels like when someone tells their 50 million twitter followers that <group x> is doing <horrible things> and needs to be stopped, that they are actually trying to get them to do violence. It's just that it's all legally fine and dandy to incite a crapton more people to a lesser degree, and get the equivalent terrorist effect.
Nope. They can be stopped a number of non-violent ways. If someone mistakes their intent and does violence... The courts give fairly wide latitude because that sort of thing. You have to be very clearly trying to get them to do violence.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Hatespeech is the step in between that requires regulation.

A stitch in time, save the lives of nine.

While it is still speech, it can be remedied mildly − by censorship.

When the offender ceases the hatespeech, they can return to the conversation.

However, when the hatespeech becomes action and people die, it can no longer be remedied.
I'll leave you to do more research on the subject. Have a good night.
 

Panda-s1

Scruffy and Determined
okay since we're getting off topic, how about some more?
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my own mother yelled at me for holding my chopsticks wrong in case I offend my ancestors or—man this is tiring, just wtf.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
okay since we're getting off topic, how about some more?
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my own mother yelled at me for holding my chopsticks wrong in case I offend my ancestors or—man this is tiring, just wtf.

The focus on honor seems like a really solid attack to use against folks who don't find 1e OA problematic (as opposed to Trammell's other two big arguments which had the game mechanic time-line wrong). Has anyone had a defense against this one?

Unlike, say, about the reader not knowing variety of ways rice can be prepared (see #557 and life in the early 80s in the midwest where they very well might not), and your disagreement about base AD&D being occidental adventures (see #359 with another painful amount of stuff for probably not tons of disagreement).

Anyway, it feels like you've put out more than enough examples that everyone should pretty much agree that 1e OA doesn't have much use except for historical purposes. If folks were running something old school then it feels like they should grab something more modern, and at most crib off of the 1e OA class write up and spell list to keep everything to scale when they translate it back. And then hide the 1e OA book so they don't get any of the culture things from it.
 
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Panda-s1

Scruffy and Determined
The focus on honor seems like a really solid attacks to me to use against folks who don't find 1e OA problematic (unlike Trammell's other two big arguments which had the game mechanic time-line wrong). Has anyone had a defense against this one?

Unlike, say, about the reader not knowing variety of ways rice can be prepared (see #557 and life in the early 80s in the midwest where they very well might not), and your disagreement about base AD&D being occidental adventures (see #359 with another painful amount of stuff for probably not tons of disagreement).

Anyway, it feels like you've put out more than enough examples that everyone should pretty much agree that 1e OA doesn't have much use except for historical purposes. If folks were running something back then it feels like they should grab something more modern, and at most crib off of the 1e OA class write up and spell list to keep everything to scale when they translate it back. And then hide the book so they don't get any of the culture things from it.
I don't want to hear people defend this. I'm just pointing this out.

and like, geez. I haven't played Curse of Strahd, but people talk about how it's a great adventure except for the part about Vistani. but you can just rewrite that small bit. OA is different, it's talking about culture at large and the setting it makes is like a huge caricature. I can't just cut out bits like honor or manners when everyone in the setting is supposed to be like this. if people want to own copies, then w/e, just understand why someone like me believes there's no merit in WotC to keep selling it after saying they're going to be more culturally sensitive.
 

Voadam

Legend
If folks were running something old school then it feels like they should grab something more modern, and at most crib off of the 1e OA class write up and spell list to keep everything to scale when they translate it back. And then hide the 1e OA book so they don't get any of the culture things from it.
If you ignore the culture stuff and six pages of setting and the honor system as not to your taste you still have a ton of useable stuff:

The races.
The classes.
The weapons.
The armor.
The ninja equipment.
The nonweapon proficiencies.
The martial arts.
The spells.
The monsters.
The magic items.
 

Panda-s1

Scruffy and Determined
If you ignore the culture stuff and six pages of setting and the honor system as not to your taste you still have a ton of useable stuff:

The races.
The classes.
The weapons.
The armor.
The ninja equipment.
The nonweapon proficiencies.
The martial arts.
The spells.
The monsters.
The magic items.
dude, if they're gonna describe the people of kara-tur like that what makes you think the rest of this stuff is gonna be treated any better?
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
dude, if they're gonna describe the people of kara-tur like that what makes you think the rest of this stuff is gonna be treated any better?

As RPG designers for 1e it feels like they might have been semi-passable at making monsters and spells and figuring out weapon damage and appropriate armor classes for armor that fits in with the rest of the game mechanically. It always seems easier to me anyway to take things about a class or race or I don't like, and pop in something of equivalent advantage/disadvantage instead of remaking something new from the ground up. Or maybe a few of them weren't bad. So if one were running something old school, you could find a newer source book and use the old things as a template. Maybe a Ninja of good flavor for 1e is easier to build from the Thief, or Assassin classes, or maybe it's easier to do using the Ninja they have there after chucking the bad parts aside (or some multi-class, for mystical things).
 

Panda-s1

Scruffy and Determined
As RPG designers for 1e it feels like they might have been semi-passable at making monsters and spells and figuring out weapon damage and appropriate armor classes for armor that fits in with the rest of the game mechanically. It always seems easier to me anyway to take things about a class or race or I don't like, and pop in something of equivalent advantage/disadvantage instead of remaking something new from the ground up. Or maybe a few of them weren't bad. So if one were running something old school, you could find a newer source book and use the old things as a template. Maybe a Ninja of good flavor for 1e is easier to build from the Thief, or Assassin classes, or maybe it's easier to do using the Ninja they have there after chucking the bad parts aside (or some multi-class, for mystical things).
no no no, I'm talking about things like descriptions. I'm pretty sure the same way the PHB describes how paladins and druids are supposed to behave they have a lot to say about samurai and honor and probably an awkward interpretation about ritual suicide. I might be exaggerating, I might not. I don't know. I'm mostly in the "samurai are fighters" camp if I'm honest. but AD&D wasn't, so I have to imagine they at best awkwardly explain samurai culture.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
no no no, I'm talking about things like descriptions. I'm pretty sure the same way the PHB describes how paladins and druids are supposed to behave they have a lot to say about samurai and honor and probably an awkward interpretation about ritual suicide. I might be exaggerating, I might not. I don't know. I'm mostly in the "samurai are fighters" camp if I'm honest. but AD&D wasn't, so I have to imagine they at best awkwardly explain samurai culture.

Got it. And I think we're on the same page there.

I was only meaning that the mechanical parts might be useful for someone building it better for 1e. Using it something like the old 3.5 SRD, that was pretty much just crunch with the flavor and background stripped out (iirc). So, for the Samurai, if honor is in the crunch, then that would be a part to either sub out for something better, or a reason to just base it off of Fighter.
 

Panda-s1

Scruffy and Determined
Got it. And I think we're on the same page there.

I was only meaning that the mechanical parts might be useful for someone building it better for 1e. Using it something like the old 3.5 SRD, that was pretty much just crunch with the flavor and background stripped out (iirc). So, for the Samurai, if honor is in the crunch, then that would be a part to either sub out for something better, or a reason to just base it off of Fighter.
yeah, I'm sure some of the mechanical parts are actually good and useful. but anything that might be "lore" based... probably not so much.

once upon a time I wanted to buy Oriental Adventures, I have a 1e collection and I knew that's where non-weapon proficiencies started. I'd find it from time to time at used book stores so I knew the stuff inside was pretty dated, but it was still a historical curiosity. still $15-20 is a lot for a book I'll basically never use, so I didn't buy it. now? it's skunked. I don't wanna buy it. maybe one day in the future, but it'll be more expensive than it's worth because of people who can't stand the idea of change.
 


Aldarc

Legend
IME, as an American living abroad in Europe, I get the feeling that Americans have a hard time of grasping that democratic national understandings of free speech apart from anything that does not involve free speech as filtered through the First Amendment.
 

Mirtek

Hero
. I'm mostly in the "samurai are fighters" camp if I'm honest. but AD&D wasn't,
They really couldn't. People were buying splatbooks for new game mechanics. An OA with tables like:

Katana = see Longsword
Sai = see Dagger
Samurai = see Fighter

Would not have been bought.

All the cultural might not even have been read by mist players, who just wanted the ninja class mechanics to use for their halfling character in their Dale Lands campaign where no one ever heard of Ksra Tur
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
I mean I said I already know that, and this was something I was taught in high school when I took Mandarin as well. but the issue here is "fan". 饭 is also used to mean just food. that's not to say rice isn't important, but it's just a language thing. in Spanish "papas" means potatoes, but for kids (and to kids) in Latin America it also just means food. my own Mexican grandma would tell me and my siblings "here's papas" and whatnot (I can't exactly remember). it's not like potatoes aren't important in Latin American cuisine, it's just that's how language is.

Are you sure it's a good look for you to be lecturing someone who is from Singapore about their culture and language because you took some Mandarin in high school?

Given the topic of conversation .... that's some chutzpah.
 

Aldarc

Legend
It seems like he’s making a larger point about how language can be deceptive about the modern cultural importance of foods using examples he is familiar with rather than lecturing about someone’s language and culture. We could, for example, also see this in Greek. In the Lord’s Prayer, the whole “our daily bread” is just a reference to a daily meal. Examples of this exist aplenty.
 


Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
He's not wrong, although the way it was explained to me when I was young was that rice was equated with food because it was so important to us.

He might not be wrong, but isn't this just another Westerner explaining things to you based upon an academic class, with no real exposure to your culture? After all, a westerner with Korean/Mexican ancestry does not have any special insight that any other westerner would have, and should not speak for all Asian cultures.

I kid, but only to make the point. You have had a lot of valuable input into the issues here, yet your input is diminished by some people because they claim you can't speak for the experience of Asian-Americans (as if that group is a monolithic whole). Nevertheless, others choose to speak to your experience based only on academic classes. Which is weird.

That said, I agree with you and think that true understanding of positions is best achieved by sharing opinions.
 

amethal

Adventurer
IME, as an American living abroad in Europe, I get the feeling that Americans have a hard time of grasping that democratic national understandings of free speech apart from anything that does not involve free speech as filtered through the First Amendment.
Some Americans seem to think freedom of speech was created by the First Amendment and seem genuinely unable to grasp my argument that it is a universal human right that is independent of what the US Constitution has to say on the subject.

It's not just that they disagreed with me - I'm fine with people disagreeing with me, it happens all the time - but rather the words I use seem to make no sense to them.
 

FireLance

Legend
Anyway, here's one piece of unsolicited advice for any game designers who haven't been scared off and still want to use the "Have you eaten rice already?" greeting as a bit of flavour for an Asian-inspired fantasy culture or country. It's even based on a bit of Singapore history.

During the Second World War, rice was in short supply in Singapore, so most people had to rely on sweet potatoes as a staple. An Asian-inspired fantasy culture or country which went through a similar experience might thus be especially fond of using that greeting as a comforting affirmation that the hard times are over. I make no claim that this actually happened in Singapore, though. ;)
 

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