D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
I'd bet good money that's how Zeb Cook would look at it, although I think he's better off keeping his head down for a while. It does make me wonder if anyone has ever interviewed him on the issues of orientalism within Oriental Adventures.

Not as far as I know.

As I wrote in another thread, as recently as 2009 that I can tell, he was still using the word "Oriental" in other contexts in interviews (Oriental History, etc.), and describing it as a passion project.
 

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Voadam

Legend
no, don't twist it, it'll legally always be available. I'm not interested in owning a pdf copy.

I was talking about the PDF, not people's private copies they own.

WotC used to have their own online shop for old edition D&D PDFs starting around 2000 or so, then they put some up on rpgnow which later merged with drivethru. Once Paizo got going WotC put them up there for sale as well. I bought WotC D&D pdfs from all three. One day in the 4e era after they had put a couple supplemental 4e sourcebooks like Martial Power and Arcane Power up as PDFs I got an email saying they would all be gone the next day so buy and download any last copies before they were gone. And within a day there was no option to buy any more.

WotC put out a statement about piracy but it seemed pretty clear it was to cut off access in an attempt to spur people to buy physical books of the current edition. That legal access for any old edition PDF was then gone for years until WotC decided to go a different direction.

Legal access is not guaranteed for always. WotC has pulled it away before.
 


Catolias

Explorer
It's not that hard. When adapting a culture to a game, do your research to the best of your ability. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. After creating your game design and sharing it with the community, be open to criticism and be willing to change and edit your work.

The equivalent to Oriental Adventures is the publisher making a statement that they are aware the earlier work is highly problematic, and should they revisit it again, they will strive to do better. Which is exactly what WotC did, if a bit late to the party. I'd bet good money that's how Zeb Cook would look at it, although I think he's better off keeping his head down for a while. It does make me wonder if anyone has ever interviewed him on the issues of orientalism within Oriental Adventures.

I can't help but feel you are throwing up a strawman here. If you are a 15 year old designing game elements for your friends to play D&D . . . no one's coming after you for cultural appropriation or systemic racism . . . and your game design likely sucks anyway, because you're 15. My stuff from that era of my life stays in my secret notebooks! As you grow in knowledge, experience, and empathy . . . strive to do better.

If a culture is truly extinct, which few actually are, then it's unlikely the descendants of that culture are going to be upset with you. The Inca and Aztecs don't exist in the same form they did pre-colonial days, but we aren't ignorant of their cultures and their descendants still live in the same regions today, still practicing elements of culture passed down from those supposedly extinct days.

If you think they are straw men, fine. My questions and statements were how do you be sensitive when access to credible information about another culture is not simple when there is nothing guiding what sensitive looks like. Yes, OA is inappropriate but in the absence of nothing how do you intend to ensure that the next generation access sensitive information? How do you ensure that in countries were racism, hate speech and populism are rising that the same old, tired racist tropes do not recur?

It is not enough to hope someone will do the right thing. You need to give guidance. You need to show the way. If the community does that, that’s good. But the world has changed in just the last few weeks from BLM. It is showing that corporations have to show more than a financial responsibility to their shareholders. They have to show an ethical and moral responsibility for their past decisions in much the same way that many governments are being asked to do. WotC has an ethical and moral responsibility to the gaming community to repair the damage beyond vanilla disclaimers
 

If you think they are straw men, fine. My questions and statements were how do you be sensitive when access to credible information about another culture is not simple when there is nothing guiding what sensitive looks like. Yes, OA is inappropriate but in the absence of nothing how do you intend to ensure that the next generation access sensitive information? How do you ensure that in countries were racism, hate speech and populism are rising that the same old, tired racist tropes do not recur?

It is not enough to hope someone will do the right thing. You need to give guidance. You need to show the way. If the community does that, that’s good. But the world has changed in just the last few weeks from BLM. It is showing that corporations have to show more than a financial responsibility to their shareholders. They have to show an ethical and moral responsibility for their past decisions in much the same way that many governments are being asked to do. WotC has an ethical and moral responsibility to the gaming community to repair the damage beyond vanilla disclaimers

With respect, because I fully support BLM and all that it stands for, but you have a far more optimistic viewing of what it has accomplished in the recent times. I live in Louisville, KY and I see no change what-so-ever, just the same responses from companies trying to latch on to topical issues in a false attempt to make us think they actually give a crap about more than the bottom line, while our so-called "leaders" continue to promote token useless gestures that have no actual meaningful change or effort towards improving things at all while they hope to hell the mobs of protesters will shift their focus towards other issues or begin to starve to death from lack of jobs or catching COVID.

What's more, in my particular city there are still ongoing protests, yet unlike other cities that have been heavily involved in the movement, there are no signs of anger actual change EVER occurring and to make matters worse the movement is largely abandoning us after the cities in more blue or swing states...yet again see change while the middle of the nation is effectively screwed. There's a reason why only one candidate in the Democratic primary was actually popular here and it ain't the guy we have left.
 

Catolias

Explorer
With respect, because I fully support BLM and all that it stands for, but you have a far more optimistic viewing of what it has accomplished in the recent times. I live in Louisville, KY and I see no change what-so-ever, just the same responses from companies trying to latch on to topical issues in a false attempt to make us think they actually give a crap about more than the bottom line, while our so-called "leaders" continue to promote token useless gestures that have no actual meaningful change or effort towards improving things at all while they hope to hell the mobs of protesters will shift their focus towards other issues or begin to starve to death from lack of jobs or catching COVID.

I’m not optimistic. That’s why I said I see WotC has to demonstrate ethical and moral responsibility rather than issue vanilla disclaimers. If we are not happy with that response then we should call them out on it. The issues Facebook has with financial sponsors shows what happens when companies handle it poorly.
 

There are two meanings of the term "right".

1) That thing we believe people ought to be allowed to do, and 2) That which we actually put legal controls around to preserve.

There are many more meanings of right. I think the type of right that most Americans refer to when they say free speech is a right is that certain rights were (according the American ethos) granted by God (or the universe, or some similarly powerful force) and cannot be legitimately limited by government because the being (or force) that created them is not subject to governmental restrictions.

In other words, rights are granted by government. Instead, they supersede government. Instead, it is the government's duty to protect those rights.
 
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GreyLord

Legend
There are many more meanings of right. I think the type of right that most Americans refer to when they say free speech is a right is that certain rights were (according the American ethos) granted by God (or the universe, or some similarly powerful force) and cannot be legitimately limited by government because the being (or force) that created them is not subject to governmental restrictions.

In other words, rights are granted by government. Instead, they supersede government.

My understanding is similar to this.

When creating these rights, they examined what rights could not be taken away naturally, or those that would need excessive force, perhaps even death, to actually take away. The only limitation then would be fear of punishment so that people would limit the right themselves, rather than the right to actually be able to enforce these to be taken away.

First Amendment. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

A government cannot stop the way someone believes or has faith. They can dictate, they can try to suppress, but ultimately it is something that is found within one's mind. In the same way, one can speak whatever they want. Even if they have their tongue cut out, there is still other ways to portray what they want to say. In the same way, unless one has someone literally bound and controlled so they have no control over their body, they can write whatever they want as long as they are literate. People can assemble, even if in small groups in a limited area, even in a prison or other area without being able to be stopped fully. You could have an army to try to outnumber the citizens, but without extreme force, stopping them from gathering is nigh impossible. Even in China where they have had rules against gathering at times, people still assembled together (thought the consequences were dire in some instances, such as tiananmen square).

However, government can try to install fear to stop people from doing these things. They can do all manner of punishments, force, and other things to try to stop them. In this way, if they have enough force, in theory, they could stop people from practicing these things.

Thus I see the First Amendment as protecting these rights so that people can practice them without fear of recrimination.

Some of these are framed in a different manner in the Declaration of Independence

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Most falling under the idea of Liberty, a man already is alive and has their life, though it can be deprived from them of Government, they also have the ability to be happy, regardless of what is dictated to them (though a government can try to make one unhappy). In regards to Liberty, there are things one can do (thoughts for example) that a government cannot stop directly, only through fear or control can they attempt to control what one actually thinks...etc.

In the same light, the US Constitution is attempting to protect these rights, to guarantee these rights so that people can openly show and practice them without fear.

Not ALL nations share these ideas or laws regarding the protection of these rights in the same manner.

That said, in relation to OA, it is still under the control of WotC. They, as a corporate entity, also have certain freedoms and rights pertaining to the control of various materials. In this, if we are free to voice our opinions to them while in the US (though it can be limited, for example, on ENworld, this is the property of those who own and control ENworld and thus, they have the right to control what is said or not said on their own property, there is no guarantee of free speech here. In addition, I do not think it falls under the US laws and is actually under UK or European law). Outside the US, it depends on the nation. We may still be able to voice what we want but there may be legal considerations to think about (such as laws that would get one jailed if they say the wrong things).

WotC on the otherhand is under no duress (legally) to actually listen to any of us or anyone beyond their own individuals who control the company in the US. IF it is a situation that occurs in Canada or elsewhere, there may actually be legal repercussions in regards to how much they do or do not listen (as corporations have a different status there in regards to rights, and various laws on freedom of expression differ).
 

IME, as an American living abroad in Europe, I get the feeling that Americans have a hard time of grasping that democratic national understandings of free speech apart from anything that does not involve free speech as filtered through the First Amendment.
The American view of rights is very different than the European view. Generally Europeans believe rights are granted by governments, while Americans have viewed rights as granted by God, who superseded government. Therefore, the only legitimate role of government is to protect and ensure its citizens' rights.
 

DammitVictor

Trust the Fungus
Supporter
* It would be reasonable to argue that there are no universal human rights by the second definition - that all rights only come from what legal controls we put in place and maintain, and without those controls, the concept of "rights" has little meaning.

In a practical sense, this is true-- but arguing that there are no meaningfully objective moral rights without a legal basis provides no moral justification for ever changing the law to recognize new legal rights. Or for resisting the law when it fails to uphold existing legal rights on an equitable basis.

Every legal right that the upstanding citizen enjoys today was given to them by the violent criminal who took it from the government by force. Every basic freedom they enjoy was won by the sweat and the blood of the same kind of people they condemn for wanting to enjoy it for themselves.

Thank a Criminal Day is 22 August. For practical legal reasons, I'm not going to make any suggestions for how we should celebrate.
 

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