Angry at players...
- Thread starter Wraithdrit
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Wraithdrit
First Post
I think intent is actually Death Ward:
Of course its a 4th level cleric spell that effects 1 person for 1 min/level.
Of course its a 4th level cleric spell that effects 1 person for 1 min/level.
Henry
Autoexreginated
I wouldn't award them any XP, especially if you awarded full value for bypassing the encounter in the first place.
Let them know subtly that you don't reward XP twice for the same encounter, to avoid hurt feelings, however. It may make them rethink the shadow dragon battle. At most, offer 10% of full value, or similar; otherwise, your party may get the wise idea to bypass every big encounter, and come back after it later.
Let them know subtly that you don't reward XP twice for the same encounter, to avoid hurt feelings, however. It may make them rethink the shadow dragon battle. At most, offer 10% of full value, or similar; otherwise, your party may get the wise idea to bypass every big encounter, and come back after it later.
Wraithdrit
First Post
Trickster,
You make some VERY good points. But I still feel as if THEY are metagaming. I told them very specifically what the dragon could do with its breath weapon. They are using that in their preparations.
The other thing I need for them to do is make a Knowledge: Arcana roll against the DC of 10+HD (in this case 22!) to know anything about the thing.
The dragon will remain a shadow dragon. It will probably have its spell selection tweaked (something I would have done before, given more time) and I will fine tune its tactics till I am blue in the face.
The thing I REALLY don't want is for this encounter to turn into a chump encounter. Its a dragon. It should not be a chump encounter, and by glancing at their public tactics (they always hide more from me) I can sense this becoming a chump encounter if I am not just SPOT on my game.
You make some VERY good points. But I still feel as if THEY are metagaming. I told them very specifically what the dragon could do with its breath weapon. They are using that in their preparations.
The other thing I need for them to do is make a Knowledge: Arcana roll against the DC of 10+HD (in this case 22!) to know anything about the thing.
The dragon will remain a shadow dragon. It will probably have its spell selection tweaked (something I would have done before, given more time) and I will fine tune its tactics till I am blue in the face.
The thing I REALLY don't want is for this encounter to turn into a chump encounter. Its a dragon. It should not be a chump encounter, and by glancing at their public tactics (they always hide more from me) I can sense this becoming a chump encounter if I am not just SPOT on my game.
Indeed, they've changed the spell! I guess it's worth it for the lowered duration.
Calico_Jack73
First Post
Really who is to say that the PC's couldn't have gotten the same information if they had a really sneaky stealth type go back and scout out the area. Even if you had left it vague and not told them that it was a dragon they still could have creatively gotten the information. If you want to change it around a bit why not have a Dracolich instead since they didn't actually go back and scout and are operating on the assumption that it is a Shadow Dragon. Who is to say that the Shadow Dragon isn't aware that the PC's are coming and has changed up his defenses to prepare for them? The NPC that gave them the information could have been the polymorphed dragon and is baiting the party into a trap. Certainly seems like something an evil dragon would do to me. Heck, the dragon could have been the NPC who sold the party all of the scrolls so that when the party tries to use them something entirely different happens. No way to know unless the party tries out one of the scrolls in advance or casts Read Magic to check them out but how many PC's really do that every time they buy a scroll? What if a devil or demon wants an item that the dragon posesses and they tipped off the party? In the end they'd be trading one evil for another.
Don't be upset at them, just rethink what you told them and think about what you can do with the situation. Don't go into it thinking you have to defeat them but think about how you can make the story better.
Don't be upset at them, just rethink what you told them and think about what you can do with the situation. Don't go into it thinking you have to defeat them but think about how you can make the story better.
Trickstergod
First Post
Fair enough - it came off like all you said, though, was that it was a "tough encounter," and left it at that.
If there's more to it - such as going into the creatures breath weapon, for example - than there is some leeway for changing things a bit. I also don't see much problem in changing things you would have, anyway, had you a little more prep-time. I for one often run games fairly off the cuff, and as such, I'm certain I've had one or two NPC's who I changed between games simply because I'd been quick to hammer them out initially.
As for the Knowledge (Arcana) check, while I don't believe rewarding meta-gaming should be done, knowing, at the least, that a creature hanging around with a bunch of shadows or near the shadow plane likely has negative energy attacks and is similarly immune to them is one thing they should probably still be granted. The leap of logic isn't too far of one.
Anyway, depending on how much you revealed to them out of game, well, a few changes may not be too far out of line. If you gave them more than "it would have been a tough encounter," while I still might stick to the same encounter, upping a few of the dragons stats might not be so out of line. Keep the same HD, perhaps, but give it better than average hitpoints, abilities, etc.
I'm also fond of giving dragon's spells that are completely antithetical to what they normally are - I believe it was an ice storm that I had one red dragon cast against the players during a one shot I ran. Their spells rarely are the brunt of their power, but having a few surprises is always a good thing, and should be expected of any truly intelligent opponent.
In regards to XP....
I think the players motivation for going back is what's most important in deciding how to reward them. If they're just killing it for the XP, well...how smart is it to go killing dragons just because it might be a "learning experience," eh? I'd penalize the XP for that. I'd up it more depending on their motivation from there - a desire for gold would be a little more, possibly eliminating a major threat to the surrounding area more, and so on, and so on. Seeing as how two separate encounters with the same creature might as well be two separate encounters with two creatures of the exact same type, that two encounters with the same creature should still garner some XP. What might lower it, beyond the potential for just halfwitted PC's who would kill it just for XP, would be their scouting.
Anyway. There's my thoughts. However things go, though, avoid telling the PC's about what's what until long after it matters. You have no idea how much I've been itching to call my player's a bunch of morons for constantly (and I mean constantly) saying that while their characters believe they faced off against a weretiger, the player's know, just know it was a rakshasa. When really, it was just a weretiger...ahh. Sigh. They'll be seeing him again, though. It will be amusing to see their reaction should they actually, in-game, come to believe he's a rakshasa (my players are usually quite good about not meta-gaming), and summarily fire a blessed bolt into him...only for him to sputter a bit, bleed a little, then proceed to turn them into kitty-food.
If there's more to it - such as going into the creatures breath weapon, for example - than there is some leeway for changing things a bit. I also don't see much problem in changing things you would have, anyway, had you a little more prep-time. I for one often run games fairly off the cuff, and as such, I'm certain I've had one or two NPC's who I changed between games simply because I'd been quick to hammer them out initially.
As for the Knowledge (Arcana) check, while I don't believe rewarding meta-gaming should be done, knowing, at the least, that a creature hanging around with a bunch of shadows or near the shadow plane likely has negative energy attacks and is similarly immune to them is one thing they should probably still be granted. The leap of logic isn't too far of one.
Anyway, depending on how much you revealed to them out of game, well, a few changes may not be too far out of line. If you gave them more than "it would have been a tough encounter," while I still might stick to the same encounter, upping a few of the dragons stats might not be so out of line. Keep the same HD, perhaps, but give it better than average hitpoints, abilities, etc.
I'm also fond of giving dragon's spells that are completely antithetical to what they normally are - I believe it was an ice storm that I had one red dragon cast against the players during a one shot I ran. Their spells rarely are the brunt of their power, but having a few surprises is always a good thing, and should be expected of any truly intelligent opponent.
In regards to XP....
I think the players motivation for going back is what's most important in deciding how to reward them. If they're just killing it for the XP, well...how smart is it to go killing dragons just because it might be a "learning experience," eh? I'd penalize the XP for that. I'd up it more depending on their motivation from there - a desire for gold would be a little more, possibly eliminating a major threat to the surrounding area more, and so on, and so on. Seeing as how two separate encounters with the same creature might as well be two separate encounters with two creatures of the exact same type, that two encounters with the same creature should still garner some XP. What might lower it, beyond the potential for just halfwitted PC's who would kill it just for XP, would be their scouting.
Anyway. There's my thoughts. However things go, though, avoid telling the PC's about what's what until long after it matters. You have no idea how much I've been itching to call my player's a bunch of morons for constantly (and I mean constantly) saying that while their characters believe they faced off against a weretiger, the player's know, just know it was a rakshasa. When really, it was just a weretiger...ahh. Sigh. They'll be seeing him again, though. It will be amusing to see their reaction should they actually, in-game, come to believe he's a rakshasa (my players are usually quite good about not meta-gaming), and summarily fire a blessed bolt into him...only for him to sputter a bit, bleed a little, then proceed to turn them into kitty-food.
Valiantheart
First Post
I would say its metagaming if they know Shadow Dragons breath a drain effect and they have never encountered one. Unless one of them has a substantial knowledge skill of a) The Plain of Shadow or b) Dragons there is no way they should know the beasts capabilities.
Wraithdrit
First Post
The knowledge is covered by Knowledge (arcana) it states Dragon... so.
I suppose what some of you are eluding to here (thanks again Trickster) is their motivation. Basically this whole discussion has come up because they have information that the BBEG (known to them as Mother) for the entire campaign is capable of 9th level Cleric spells. They are a party of 5 13th level adventurers. They know they are getting close to the city, and have made a massive leap of logic that if they are this close to the city, the fight with Mother must be close at hand and that they need milk every single XP out of the adventure they can so they can take on such a high level caster.
So out of game I have informed them now that there is plenty of adventure between them and the end fight, and that they will have opportunity to level several more times before facing her. Hopefully that will dissuade them from tangling with the Shadow Dragon out of the sole desire to farm XP and GP (which I think is one big reason why I am po'ed, thats just TACKY in my book).
I suppose what some of you are eluding to here (thanks again Trickster) is their motivation. Basically this whole discussion has come up because they have information that the BBEG (known to them as Mother) for the entire campaign is capable of 9th level Cleric spells. They are a party of 5 13th level adventurers. They know they are getting close to the city, and have made a massive leap of logic that if they are this close to the city, the fight with Mother must be close at hand and that they need milk every single XP out of the adventure they can so they can take on such a high level caster.
So out of game I have informed them now that there is plenty of adventure between them and the end fight, and that they will have opportunity to level several more times before facing her. Hopefully that will dissuade them from tangling with the Shadow Dragon out of the sole desire to farm XP and GP (which I think is one big reason why I am po'ed, thats just TACKY in my book).
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