Animated Dead part of BBEG CR?

[interwyrm]

So... the person DM'ing our game this week decided that it would be acceptable to throw our two 3rd level wizards up against a prepared 5th level necromancer. The necromancer has all these feats from Libris Mortis that improve the undead he creates. So, the skeletons this guy has control over have +4 strength, +2 hp/HD, deal 1d4 extra cold damage, and explode for 1d6 negative energy when you kill them.

Here's the thing. Our plan was to sneak into his lair, wand of magic missile and wand of scorching ray the bastard, and the sneak out. We both had illusion as a prohibited school, and we're using a house rule that allows specialist wizards access to all spells of the specialist school, no matter what class they are from. So, I used hide from undead. So, the problem is, there is an ogre zombie guarding the door. We use the cantrip open/close to open it. Unfortunately, the ogre is standing right in front of the door, so it doesn't open all the way, and we won't be able to get in. So we ice the ogre, and by ice, I mean scorching ray/magic missile it to death. Like... 5 charges each. So we get inside, recast hide from undead, sneak past some skeletons guarding the next door, and then we get inside, and the wizard is prepared, waiting for us. The DM informed us that he was in the tower of the ruined church, controlling the ogre. I personally think that unrealistic. I mean, what self respecting wizard goes on guard duty when he could be studying/crafting/researching/etc. I mean, he's got guards all over the place, why does he need to be up there?

Anyways, so we get down there, he parlays. We try to convince him of his evil ways. He starts casting a spell, I try to use my wand to disrupt it. Oh! brooch of shielding. I'm screwed. I used all my spell slots on protection from arrows and hide from undead. Well, I had like 4 acid splashes memorized, but come on. So my buddy goes and scorching rays the necromancer. Oh! protection from elements. The necromancer then raises like, 6 more undead, and two from inside the room come and attack us. The two we bypassed came down and blocked our exit. I've got one more hide from undead memorized, but it ends if you touch an undead. So's I can't cast it unless we are on the other side of the guards. Well, we've each got 8 str, so we can't overrun or bull rush. So we try to wand one to death. Magic missile fails to kill it, scorching ray misses. Next round we are grappled 2 times each and fade into a dm-generated plot device to save us from death.

Uh... so to get back to the title of the post... the GM also claims that 20HD of skeletons is included in the CR rating of the encounter. and also that each modified skeleton is still 1/2 CR. So... what do you guys think, is a wiz5 with 20hd of undead still a cr5 encounter?

 

[Pyrex]

Typically any undead that are already animate when combat begins would count seperately to the EL of the encounter. Any he animates during combat would be included in the caster's CR.

The three corpse-caster feats should definately increase the CR (and hence contributory EL) of any undead that were animate before combat began.

That being said; it pretty clearly looks to me like your DM decided you were being captured; so it doesn't much matter at this point.

 

[ElectricDragon]

A 5th level cleric necromancer with animate dead can control up to 10 HD of skeletons and/or zombies through use of the spell. He can command another 5 HD of 2HD or less undead through his rebuke/command ability. No way can he control 20 HD.

Ciao
Dave

 

[Jack Simth]

A 5th level cleric necromancer with animate dead can control up to 10 HD of skeletons and/or zombies through use of the spell. He can command another 5 HD of 2HD or less undead through his rebuke/command ability. No way can he control 20 HD.

Ciao
Dave

Umm... from the 3.5 SRD text of Animate Dead:

The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. (You choose which creatures are released.) If you are a cleric, any undead you might command by virtue of your power to command or rebuke undead do not count toward the limit.

(Emphasis added)

5th level Cleric, 20 HD of undead - doable, in two castings (or one in a properly prepared area)

 

[Bad Paper]

I had this discussion with a friend recently. My conclusion was that if the additional creatures would disappear on their own, then the PCs don't get XP for them. If the creatures are permanently hanging around, then the PCs do.

Summoned monsters disappear on their own. Called monsters and undead stick around, so yes I grant XP for them, even if they were animated/called/whatever during combat.

 

[Stalker0]

If nothing else, the money used to raise the skeletons should count against the npcs gold, those 20 HD of undead don't come cheap

 

[Peter Gibbons]

Typically any undead that are already animate when combat begins would count seperately to the EL of the encounter. Any he animates during combat would be included in the caster's CR.

The three corpse-caster feats should definately increase the CR (and hence contributory EL) of any undead that were animate before combat began.

Pyrex has it right.

 

[Shin Okada]

Typically any undead that are already animate when combat begins would count seperately to the EL of the encounter. Any he animates during combat would be included in the caster's CR.

The three corpse-caster feats should definately increase the CR (and hence contributory EL) of any undead that were animate before combat began.

I am second to this opinion.

Think like this. Golems must be made by someone. So defeating a Golem never give you any XP unless you defeat the creator? Certainly not.

That being said; it pretty clearly looks to me like your DM decided you were being captured; so it doesn't much matter at this point.

But this may be right, too.