Animated Shields

[Dracorat]

Oh wait heh. His gore doesn't reach in to those squares, so no. But if they did, he could. As it is, the minotaur example would lose his gore altogether if he attacked with a reach weapon, but if a monster had a reach weapon and a natural one that could strike at the appropriate range, he could use it.

That's what I'm saying.

 

[Hypersmurf]

His gore doesn't reach in to those squares, so no. But if they did, he could. As it is, the minotaur example would lose his gore altogether if he attacked with a reach weapon, but if a monster had a reach weapon and a natural one that could strike at the appropriate range, he could use it.

So in this sentence:

A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away1, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away2.

There's an implicit "with the reach weapon" at point 1, but there's an implicit "with any weapon" at point 2? And this doesn't strike you as inconsistent?

-Hyp.

 

[Dracorat]

OK got the FAQ and it addresses armor spikes again later in the FAQ and supports what I was saying earlier. In order to be able to use both, you would have to specifically declare you are using both, taking a penalty to using your reach weapon.

It does, I will admit, say that a person with a reach weapon and armor spikes can use both as an AoO strike. I am saying this is in direct contradiction to the rules, so I will take the time to hit the wizards folks up on this issue.

At any rate, the following clarification might help:

Just how and when can you use armor spikes? If you’re
using two weapons already, can you use armor spikes to
make a second off-hand attack? What if you’re using a
weapon and a shield? Can you use the armor spikes for an
off-hand attack and still get a shield bonus to Armor Class
from the shield? What if you use a two-handed weapon?
Can you wield the weapon in two hands and still make an
off-hand attack with the spikes? What are your options for
using armor spikes in a grapple? Can you use them when
pinned? If you have another light weapon, can you use that
and your armor spikes when grappling?

When you fight with more than one weapon, you gain an
extra attack. (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and greater
Two-Weapon Fighting give you more attacks with the extra
weapon.) Armor spikes are a light weapon that can be used as
the extra weapon.
If you attack only with your armor spikes during your turn
(or use the armor spikes to make an attack of opportunity), you
use them just like a regular weapon. If you use the full attack
action, you can use armor spikes as either a primary light
weapon or as an off-hand light weapon, even if you’re using a
shield or using a two-handed weapon. In these latter two cases,
you’re assumed to be kicking or kneeing your foe with your
armor spikes.
Whenever you use armor spikes as an off-hand weapon,
you suffer all the penalties for attacking with two weapons (see
Table 8–10 in the Player’s Handbook). When using armor
spikes along with a two-handed weapon, it is usually best to
use the two-handed weapon as your primary attack and the
armor spikes as the off-hand weapon. You can use the armor
spikes as the primary weapon and the two-handed weapon as
the off-hand attack, but when you do so, you don’t get the
benefit of using a light weapon in your off hand.
You cannot, however, use your armor spikes to make a
second off-hand attack when you’re already fighting with two
weapons. If you have a weapon in both hands and armor spikes,
you can attack with the weapons in your hands (and not with
the armor spikes) or with one of the weapons in your hands and
the armor spikes (see the description of spiked armor in
Chapter 7 of the Player’s Handbook).
When grappling, you can damage your foe with your spikes
by making a regular grapple check (opposed by your foe’s
check). If you succeed, you deal piercing damage to your foe
(see Table 7–5 in the Player’s Handbook) rather than the
unarmed strike damage you’d normally deal when damaging
your foe with a grapple check. Since you can use armor spikes
as a light weapon, you can simply use them to attack your foe.
You suffer a –4 penalty on your attack roll when attacking with
a light weapon in a grapple (see page 156 in the Player’s
Handbook), but if your foe is bigger or stronger than you, this
might prove a better tactic than trying to deal damage through a
grapple check because there is no opposed roll to make—you
just have to hit your opponent’s Armor Class. You can’t attack
with two weapons when grappling, even when one of those
weapons is armor spikes (see the section on grappling in
Chapter 8 of the Player’s Handbook).
You can’t attack and damage your foe if he has you pinned.
If you break the pin and avoid being pinned again, you can go
back to attacking your foe. If your attack bonus is high enough
to allow multiple attacks, you might break the pin and then use
your remaining attack to damage your foe. To accomplish this,
you must first use an attack to break the pin. You can break a
pin using the Escape Artist skill, but trying to do so is a
standard action for you; once you use the standard action to
attempt escape, you can’t make any more attacks during your
turn.

 

[Dracorat]

So in this sentence:

A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away1, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away2.

There's an implicit "with the reach weapon" at point 1, but there's an implicit "with any weapon" at point 2? And this doesn't strike you as inconsistent?

-Hyp.

In 1 and 2, I have an implicit "with any weapon" in both locations. However, some weapons may not be able to strike in to the area of reach due to them not reaching.

 

[Deset Gled]

A large creatures occupies a 10'x10' area, and has reach out to 20' on either side, creating a 50' wide (i.e. 20'+10'+20') circle of death.


[etc, etc.]

Ahh. That makes much more sense. I was originally thinking (as Hyp guessed) that you were talking about 50' reach, which would be very different.

As to your other points, there are a lot of factors involved. 750 GP is a lot for a first level character. Spending your first round of combat buffing is even more expensive. You need to have opponents who are not in an open space (and I don't consider 50' diameter to be very closed), but also in a space large enough for an enlarged fighter to be able to move around. Also, I would run NPCs as being able to realize that larer characters have longer reach. And assuming the PCs are positioned where they want to be at the begining of the battle is giving them a pretty good advantage to start (even then, they won't have their full reach until after the caster's initiative).

Considering all of this, I think the tactics you describe are very good, but are far from broken. Especially considering that the characters are sacraficing money, feats, and rounds of combat prep on a tactic that can be countered by good defensive tactics.

Yup. My group goes with the officially published interpretation though. Per the Rules of the Game, you do not take TWF'ing penatlies on AoO's.

Well, that's a whole different barrel of monkeys. "Official" is a pretty meaningless term to throw around, and the Primary Source rule is a very strong counter arguement. And the RotG articles aren't known for being amazingly accurate.

My real point here is that I think there are much better ways to deal with the situation you mention than to just ban reach weapons entirely.

Anyways, how about them floating shields, eh?

 

[mvincent]

What I am saying is you can use them if you like, but they are house rules.

Following the RotG on a matter that is subject to interpretation is not house-ruling. It certainly has more legitimacy than your interpretations (or mine for that matter, or possibly even Hypersmurf's).

 

[mvincent]

OK got the FAQ and it addresses armor spikes again later in the FAQ and supports what I was saying earlier. In order to be able to use both, you would have to specifically declare you are using both, taking a penalty to using your reach weapon.

That FAQ answer specifically covers using armor spikes for TWF'ing (and getting an extra attack with them). This is actually different than AoO's, and it does not contradict the RotG or other FAQ answer.

 

[Hypersmurf]

In 1 and 2, I have an implicit "with any weapon" in both locations. However, some weapons may not be able to strike in to the area of reach due to them not reaching.

But if using a reach weapon means I can strike at 15 feet with any weapon, then any weapon does reach, as a result of the reach weapon's property.

If I have a ring, for example, whose property is "The wearer can attack opponents 15 or 20 feet away with any weapon", then I can attack an opponent 15 feet away with my Gore attack while wearing the ring, even though when I don't wear the ring, I have a reach of only 10 feet.

If, on the other hand, the reach weapon's property applies only to the reach weapon, and not to any weapon, then I can't Gore someone 15 feet away while wielding it, but neither am I prevented from Goring someone 10 feet away.

-Hyp.

 

[Dracorat]

No. You are excluding one aspect. The reach weapon stats that you can attack at 15 to 20, but does not change any weapon you might be holding to automatically be reach.

Saying that you can do something doesn't give you explicit permission if you don't qualify for other reasons (such as your other weapon doesn't actually reach into the square).

 

[Hypersmurf]

No. You are excluding one aspect. The reach weapon stats that you can attack at 15 to 20, but does not change any weapon you might be holding to automatically be reach.

Saying that you can do something doesn't give you explicit permission if you don't qualify for other reasons (such as your other weapon doesn't actually reach into the square).

It's clarified under "Melee Attacks":
With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any opponent within 5 feet. (Opponents within 5 feet are considered adjacent to you.) Some melee weapons have reach, as indicated in their descriptions. With a typical reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can't strike adjacent foes (those within 5 feet).

With a normal melee weapon, you can strike adjacent opponents. With a reach weapon, you can strike 10 feet but not 5 feet.

With a reach weapon, you can't strike adjacent foes.

This clears up what is meant in the Equipment chapter; "a wielder of such a weapon cannot attack a creature in an adjacent square" means "... with a reach weapon".

-Hyp.