Animated Shields

[mvincent]

And the RotG articles aren't known for being amazingly accurate.

If an issue is subject to interpretation, it can provide a needed resolution. I believe this issue at least qualifies as subject to interpretation.

My real point here is that I think there are much better ways to deal with the situation you mention than to just ban reach weapons entirely.

I agree, but if it becomes too much of a pain, I am sympathetic to someone making the game more enjoyable to run by simply telling me to quit using them

Anyways, how about them floating shields, eh?

My apologies for derailing the conversation, that was not my intent (indeed I was merely answering questions presented to me). Out of fairness, let me attempt to move it to another thread

Here

 

[Dracorat]

You guys have made compelling arguments. You haven't pursuaded me, but I can respect and understand your position.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way.

when you use the full attack action to gain extra attacks, apply the penalties.

You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action.

if you could attack it with something on your turn, and it threatens them, you can hit them with it on an AoO.

An experienced character gets additional regular melee attacks (by using the full attack action), but at a lower attack bonus. You make your attack of opportunity, however, at your normal attack bonus—even if you’ve already attacked in the round.

If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can ...blah blah, snip.. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.

two weapon fighting penalties don't count when making an AoO. Penalties do, however, count when using feats like Power Attack and Combat Expertise, because it specifically says so in the feats.

You are considered to be armed even when unarmed —that is, you do not provoke attacks or opportunity from armed opponents when you attack them while unarmed.

IUS is a valid weapon that threatens out to your natural reach.

Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, ...

Unarmed strike is not just hitting someone with a fist.

You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can’t also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.)

Unless you're using a reach weapon in an offhand for an extra attack, armor spikes are valid weapons, which threaten, and can be used for an AoO.

 

[Hypersmurf]

two weapon fighting penalties don't count when making an AoO. Penalties do, however, count when using feats like Power Attack and Combat Expertise, because it specifically says so in the feats.

What if I make my AoO from a prone position? Does the -4 penalty to melee attacks apply, or is it overridden by the "full normal attack bonus" clause?

Same question, but replacing "from a prone position" with "while wielding a second weapon in my off-hand"...

I'll quote the same rule you did, but apply the highlighting differently...

"If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way."

The 3E Main FAQ contained an answer demonstrating a character taking Two-Weapon Fighting penalties whether or not he took the extra attack that wielding a second weapon made available to him.

-Hyp.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

What if I make my AoO from a prone position? Does the -4 penalty to melee attacks apply, or is it overridden by the "full normal attack bonus" clause?

Prone: The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.
Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

prone is a condition, which is well defined.

I'll quote the same rule you did, but apply the highlighting differently...

"If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way."

define weilding a weapon. not an official term, very vague and even the FAQ and Errata don't help in this matter. is wielding = brandishing a weapon, or is weilding = trying to hit them with it?

The 3E Main FAQ contained an answer demonstrating a character taking Two-Weapon Fighting penalties whether or not he took the extra attack that wielding a second weapon made available to him.

I play only 3.5, so the the 3.0 FAQ means nothing. Although, the section on AoOs says that they are free attacks that interrupt other people's turns. They are not extra attacks gained by two weapon fighting. If you're not gaining the extra attack(s) during your full attack action, then you're not two weapon fighting per the rules.

Also, pointing to the FAQ or an article is pretty much pointless, because they get it wrong as often as they get it right. Much like the FAQ says that, according to the rules, casting a quickened spell or a swift action spell off a scroll is a standard action, even though it costs as much as the quickened spell slot does, or is, at the base, a swift spell. there's nothing broken about that, but they nerf it anyway. I know it's 'official' but, that doesn't hold much weight with me.

 

[billd91]

What if I make my AoO from a prone position? Does the -4 penalty to melee attacks apply, or is it overridden by the "full normal attack bonus" clause?

Same question, but replacing "from a prone position" with "while wielding a second weapon in my off-hand"...

I'll quote the same rule you did, but apply the highlighting differently...

"If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way."

The 3E Main FAQ contained an answer demonstrating a character taking Two-Weapon Fighting penalties whether or not he took the extra attack that wielding a second weapon made available to him.

-Hyp.

I haven't found that example, could you quote it here?

With respect to the two-weapon penalties, I see it as being like Rapid Shot. You declare whether or not you're planning on using multiple weapons at the beginning of the round and suffer the penalty whether or not you actually make the attack from the off hand just as if you had declared use of Rapid Shot. The important point is that you planned on doing it even if circumstances didn't bear that out.
But if you don't plan on using the off-hand, you don't get the penalty even if you are fighting with a weapon in each hand.

 

[billd91]

Oh, by the way, though in an AoO you clearly cannot use TWF to get an extra off-hand attack, I would still apply any penalties inflicted from the previous action the character took. I know it contravenes Rules of the Game, but given that the combat round is supposed to be a simulation of things going on throughout the round just adjudicated in some semblance of order AND the way combat expertise and power attack penalties carry over, I think the penalty should carry over.
One additional factor for TWF characters to weigh when deciding whether to take that off-hand attack or not...

 

[billd91]

Also, pointing to the FAQ or an article is pretty much pointless, because they get it wrong as often as they get it right. Much like the FAQ says that, according to the rules, casting a quickened spell or a swift action spell off a scroll is a standard action, even though it costs as much as the quickened spell slot does, or is, at the base, a swift spell. there's nothing broken about that, but they nerf it anyway. I know it's 'official' but, that doesn't hold much weight with me.

How do you know it's the FAQ that's got it wrong and not the original write-up of the rule?

I can certainly live with the issue of all spell-based magic item usage, including wands and scrolls, all involve the overhead of taking at least 1 standard action. A fair trade for having it available to you without taking up spell slots even though it does make the utility of some swift casting/short duration spell wands/scrolls dubious.

 

[glass]

How do you know it's the FAQ that's got it wrong and not the original write-up of the rule?

The original write-up of the rule is the primary source. I can't be wrong, any more than the sky can be wrong about being blue.


glass.

 

[mvincent]

The 3E Main FAQ contained an answer demonstrating a character taking Two-Weapon Fighting penalties whether or not he took the extra attack that wielding a second weapon made available to him.

I recall that in the 3.0 FAQ. However, this was in regard to using the defending weapon's properties (and treating it as expertise). The answer seemed a bit like a kludge and also inapplicable to 3.5, but ymmv.

Using a weapon of defending works just like the Expertise
feat. (You have to use an attack or full attack action.) You can’t
use the weapon like a shield; if you hold the weapon in your off
hand and claim an Armor Class bonus for it, you take all the
penalties for fighting with two weapons, even if you don’t
actually attack with the weapon.

In either case, it was written long ago by Skip Williams, and he was not directly addressing what we are currently discussing. Since then he has either changed his mind or simply clarified his position further: he now specifically addresses our issue in the Rules of the Game, and unambiguously states that AoO's to not use TWF'ing penalties.

Some attack penalties you voluntarily assume, such as the penalty for defensive fighting (see pages 140 and 143 in the Player's Handbook), apply until your next turn, but two weapon penalties are not one of them.

If, after you made two-weapon attacks with your sword and torch, a foe later provokes an attack of opportunity from you that same round, you can strike that foe with your longsword with no two-weapon penalty at all. (You also can use just the torch, also with no two-weapon penalty, though you still take the -4 penalty for an off-hand attack; you also still take the -4 penalty for an improvised weapon for a total penalty of -8.)