Animosity between traditional gamers and LARPers?

[Zerovoid]

I want to ask, what's the deal with all these people talking about foam swords and crap? You actually try to hit each other to resolve combat in some games? That doesn't even sound like an RPG to me, more like an accident waiting to happen.

Plus, I don't know anything about fencing, and I would guess that most gamers don't. I would get my ass handed to me on one of those foam covered pipes. How do get enough players for this kind of game. Is this just paintball for people who like swords instead of guns?

 

[Tsyr]

I want to ask, what's the deal with all these people talking about foam swords and crap? You actually try to hit each other to resolve combat in some games? That doesn't even sound like an RPG to me, more like an accident waiting to happen.

Plus, I don't know anything about fencing, and I would guess that most gamers don't. I would get my ass handed to me on one of those foam covered pipes. How do get enough players for this kind of game. Is this just paintball for people who like swords instead of guns?

Real open minded attitude there, but I'll try to explain a bit anyhow.

Yes. We do try to hit each other. We manage to do just that quite often, actualy.

Yes, it is an RPG. Remember what it stands for now... ROLE PLAYING game. It is as much a roleplaying game as Amber is, for example... more so, actualy.

Yes, accidents do happen. Most big groups I've been around require a consent form to join, because of this. But accidents are fairly rare. The worst I've ever done is broken a finger, and that was my own fault, not who I was fighting (I wasn't fighting at the time, as a matter of fact). Generaly you never see anything worse than bruises and maybe a twisted ankle now and then. I've never actualy been present, nor do I know any one who has, for a "major injury" like a broken arm or something... never even HEARD of anything worse. Except for, you know... the old steam tunnel stories.

In my experience, about half of the first timers have any experience with weapons... Myself, even before I started doing stuff with LARPs and the SCA, I had taken fencing and I've taken Kenjitsu since then. But ya know what? They catch on pretty fast.

It's also not totaly skill either, exactly... there are rules to the combat, it's not just "anything goes". Aherance to the rules can win where skill doesn't, often.

How do you get enough people? Um. I dunno, same way you do for table top, I guess. Why? Is it that hard to fathom that some people enjoy things like this? Actualy, truth be told, I find it's easier to get a "newbie" into LARP type stuff than table top... less of a "geeky" feeling when you break a sweat doing it.

Is it like paintball? Well, considering I've played paintball MAYBE a half dozen times in my life, I'm probably not the best person to answer that, but... It has similarities and differences. It's similar in that it is a rule-based, relitively safe form of mock-combat that still has a touch of thrill to it. It's different in pretty much every other way, though... Paintball doesn't have mages, or locks to pick, or an ongoing story, or...

 

[Ristamar]

Having participated in a good number of fantasy larps, I can explain this...

When you get bruises from fights, you tend to be less hack-happy. No matter how... safe... the rules seem, accidents happen, I assure you. And not all rules are really that safe... a foam covered fiberglass core can still hurt like hell.

I've never LARPed or participated in an SCA-style event, nor do I ever really plan to, but if I did, this would be half the fun, IMO. Bruises and sprains are only temporary. Then again, I still skateboard fairly regularly, so I'm usually walking around with bruises and sprains all the time. It'd be a nice change of pace to smack the s**t out of some other guy instead of always beating the crap out of my own body.

 

[Old One]

Yep, that is "the Crap"...

I want to ask, what's the deal with all these people talking about foam swords and crap? You actually try to hit each other to resolve combat in some games? That doesn't even sound like an RPG to me, more like an accident waiting to happen.

Plus, I don't know anything about fencing, and I would guess that most gamers don't. I would get my ass handed to me on one of those foam covered pipes. How do get enough players for this kind of game. Is this just paintball for people who like swords instead of guns?

Zerovoid,

I don't know if you were trying to be funny, but I almost spit my soda all over the keyboard when I read your post. In most fantasy LARPs, combat resolution involves actual physical combat with "boffer" weapons (PVC or kite tubing covered with foam) and uses thrown spell packets (small cloth squares filled with birdseed); along with a verbal component that tells you opponent what type of attack you are making or spell you are throwing.

Most games require you to go through a safety course and sign a liability waiver before you can play. Legal targets (in most games) are everything but head, neck, groin and hands below the wrist (for both physical and spell attacks). Though it seems like there is a lot of potential for serious injury, they really tend to be few and far between, in my experience.

I did fence for several years in college and have a small amount of SCA experience, so I really enjoy the physical aspect of the game - field battles, one-on-one duels, etc. That said, there are many players that never lift a weapon or toss an offensive spell. They may play healers or gypsies or merchants and not engage in combat ever.

In addition, pure physical ability only takes you so far. There are many special skills in-game (essentially feats), that allow for critical attacks, delivery of poison or that can incapacitate via sneak attack. I am pretty good (actually very good) in combat (even though I turn 40 in a couple of weeks), but have gotten laid out plenty of times by spells, poison and tough critters.

Also, different systems have different armor rules. With some systems, armor provides additional points that must be "breached" before attacks can affect your body. In other systems, armor protects against 1 or 2 "hits" before the body location is completely incapacitated.

Although the combat can be rather intense at times...I would say that the SCA is much closer to "paintball with swords" that NERO or other such systems!

I have rambled far too long...

~ Old One

 

[Tsyr]

Old One covered a great deal I probably should have but neglected to... I pretty much exclusivly talked about the physical side, and even then only a part of that.

*shrug*

My appologies.

And yes, the SCA _IS_ closer to Paintball with Swords... but I love it anyways!

 

[takyris]

Seems like the point at which you start actually hitting each other is the point at which it becomes well-nigh impossible to play anyone except yourself. It's that whole abstract versus direct problem. Even in D&D, where people have Int, Wis, and Cha scores, it's hard to play someone dumber or less likeable than you are, and pritnear impossible to play someone smarter or MORE likeable than you are.

When you start adding in your own physical abilities -- and then skills, for that matter -- it seems like you're at a point where all you can play is you. Admittedly, as a 5th-degree Kenpo black belt with an eye-watering assortment of defensive options for the average sword attack, this shouldn't bug me. But isn't the entire point of roleplaying to play someone you aren't? I mean, heck, I liked being able to control people's minds in Vampire. Or pick up cars and throw them at people. Or leap across an alley. How does that work in the LARP? You say, "I'm controlling your mind." Or pass them a note? That seems like pretty heavy metagamery waiting to happen. And what do you do, put a note on the car that says, "Jake moved it in front of the door with his super strength"? And waiting ten minutes while some guy goes down the stairs from the roof, goes into the next building, goes back up the stairs, climbs onto the roof, and announces, "Haha, I jumped across," sounds a little goofy.

But:

1) I'd love the freedom of talking in character all the time.

2) I think that I'd get into different kinds of games -- which is both good and bad. I mean, really, the ideal LARP would be one where nothing supernatural happened at all, because it'd be really easy to get the rules right.

3) I'm sure Les Arpeurs can tell me how each of those things is handled smoothly in-game.

-Tacky

 

[number6]

I really think that a lot of ones experience with LARPing depends on the area one is in and the type of LARPs running in that area. Here in Central California the events tend to be strictly White Wolf affairs and also seems to attract the mentally unbalanced. Several of the main players and/or storytellers here are known clinically unstable types. One is a known schizophrenic (clinically diagnosed and who often refuses to take his meds and is in and out of the local mental facilities because of this) who has been thrown out of most of the regular gaming circles because he is a danger to himself and others. Another is infamous for offering sexual favors to anyone and everyone in his games (and of course if you take him up on it miraculously your character does very well....) So I think it is safe to say that LARPing in general has gotten a bad rap around here because of the type of people involved. I have an open mind however, and realize that there are as many types of LARPS and LARPers as there are any type of person....but I am a bit older and more experienced at gaming so I would guess that most table-top gamers around here have a very dim view of LARPers because of the afore-mentioned individuals.

 

[Old One]

Some Truth to That...

Seems like the point at which you start actually hitting each other is the point at which it becomes well-nigh impossible to play anyone except yourself. It's that whole abstract versus direct problem. Even in D&D, where people have Int, Wis, and Cha scores, it's hard to play someone dumber or less likeable than you are, and pritnear impossible to play someone smarter or MORE likeable than you are.

Tacky -

There is some truth to what you say here...but combat, at least in the fantasy LARPs I have played in, are governed by a reasonable rule set. No body-to-body contact (sorry, no shield rushes or bashes), no "machine-gunning" - striking so fast that you can't call out your damage with each swing, etc. Plus, the weapons, armor and dress that you choose really help you stay "in character" to a large degree...ie, you can be a stealth rogue, looking for an ideal backstab chance or a frontline meatshield using sword and shield or a battlemage hurling flame bolts and icebolts.

When you start adding in your own physical abilities -- and then skills, for that matter -- it seems like you're at a point where all you can play is you. Admittedly, as a 5th-degree Kenpo black belt with an eye-watering assortment of defensive options for the average sword attack, this shouldn't bug me. But isn't the entire point of roleplaying to play someone you aren't? I mean, heck, I liked being able to control people's minds in Vampire. Or pick up cars and throw them at people. Or leap across an alley. How does that work in the LARP? You say, "I'm controlling your mind." Or pass them a note? That seems like pretty heavy metagamery waiting to happen. And what do you do, put a note on the car that says, "Jake moved it in front of the door with his super strength"? And waiting ten minutes while some guy goes down the stairs from the roof, goes into the next building, goes back up the stairs, climbs onto the roof, and announces, "Haha, I jumped across," sounds a little goofy.

I don't have any experience with Vampire, so I have no idea of the level of metagaming involved. In NERO though, some creatures have +1 (or more) strength. If you are trying to hold a door shut and a creature w/ +1 stength is on the other side, then the NPC playing the critter calls out "+1 strength and automatically forces the door open.

There are all manner of buffs, weapon enhancements and even mind controlling effects. "Vampire Charm" turns you into the vampire's slave for 10 minutes (although certain races can buy feats to resist the effect). I will say that it takes a bit of time to learn all of the effects, but it is no more difficult than learning a tabletop system.

But:

1) I'd love the freedom of talking in character all the time.

2) I think that I'd get into different kinds of games -- which is both good and bad. I mean, really, the ideal LARP would be one where nothing supernatural happened at all, because it'd be really easy to get the rules right.

3) I'm sure Les Arpeurs can tell me how each of those things is handled smoothly in-game.

-Tacky

I came to LARPs pretty late (past age 30) and have always concentrated on fighter-types because I like the physical challenge. I also really like actually doing it...you don't roll the dice for resolution...you actually have to pick the lock, disarm the trap, jump from rock to rock over the boiling lava, track down the bandit leader, scour the town to recover the pieces of the ancient artifact, etc.

Although I love tabletop games with a passion, the thrill of accomplishing a major quest or defeating an major enemy in the context of an ongoing LARP campaign is pretty awesome. The key is really finding one that you like with players and NPCs that you enjoy being around.

~ Old One

 

[Cedric]

theRuinedOne said:

Hey Cedric, which games did you run? My group and I were regulars at the Origins Larps, chances are we were there. Good games, from what I remember.

Well, in '99 (at least I think it was '99) Dark Millennium productions ran the Post Apocalyptic Vampire LARP, with a little bit of Werewolf and Mage thrown in. The year before that we ran the LARP as Origins also.

I was the large guy (6' 2", 270 lbs) with short, dark brown hair and a goatee. I was usually seen wearing a black t-shirt that said either NPC or GM on it. I was the lead Storyteller, my name is Greg Bullard. Jerry Boucher assisted me and wrote most of the story.

Cedric

 

[Corinth]

I've had the dubious pleasure of watching many of my friends play in a handful of Vampire LARPs over the last year. Many of the qualities ascribed to MET games apply here: scores of lame wankers who metagame and powergame to degrees that would never work in a tabletop game, more PVP action that should be the case in a Vampire game, the formation of cliques that go far beyond the game and deeply affect it, Storyteller favortism that would get you lynched in the RPGA, the blatant disregard for the fun of other players by many involved (including the STs), the same disregard for the rules by many (including the STs) and so much more: it was as if I watched a daytime soap as produced by the morons who produced Mortal Kombat: Annihilation, save that there's more money for stage blood and prostetics, unfold in very slow motion.

That said, I've not sworn off LARPs. I've sworn off participation in all LARPs run by the clique that runs the Vampire LARP described above. (Locals: The LARP is "Night: A Ressurection From the Ashes" and its impending sequel.) It's also given me the very dangerous idea of taking it over and running it myself, just to show the morons in charge how it's done.