Annoying Fantasy Trends

[Ghostknight]

[Rant]

Many of my peeves were noted above. A personal one is when authors writing combat-heavy fantasy don't have the slightest notion of how medieval and renaissance ironmongery was used or how battles were fought. I'm not asking for encyclopedic knowledge here, and this isn't dark, secret information that only people with the proper credentials and an arcane handshake can access. Just simple stuff like:

Medieval weapons were relatively light in terms of weight. There's no such thing as a ten lb broadsword. At least not a wieldable ten lb broadsword.

Any weapon is deadly under the right circumstances. People whose business is to live and die by the sword know this and respect a poinard as much as a greatsword.

People wore armour for a reason, and it wasn't to make them look pretty and shiny. It was to keep them alive. It did this by keeping them uninjured. In a real combat situation, the first person wounded is probably the loser. If he's not hurt badly enough initially, he's slowed down enough to be picked off pretty quickly.

[/Rant]

A few points on the above. medieval weaponry WAS heavy. Knights were trained from childhood to use it effectively. This was one of the reasons knights were so superior in combat. Someone trained in combat from childhood vs a barely trained conscripts is going to be a very uneven contest.

What usually gets me is the idea that medieval swords etc were more effective when sharp. Against armor, the sharpness of your sword was immaterial. A blunt warhammer or mace was just as effective- the main damage being done when the armor was deformed and broke the bones underneath it.

As for a poignard or rapier being as effective as a broadsword/mace/flail etc- only when out of arnor or in the renaisance era. In battle where knights were armored, weapons like a poignard or rapier are pretty ineffective unless you got lucky and got it into an unprotected gap. A tactic used was for the conscripts to swarm a knight, pull him down and punch daggers/agricultural implements/sharpened sticks into the gaps in the armor. (and killing the horse was just not an option, the price of a decent warhorse being immense)

 

[Akrasia]

I hate it when authors don't know when to end their series.

Perfect example: Glen Cook's "Black Company" novels. The first three were excellent, and had a satisfying conclusion.

But then he kept going, and going, and things got progressively silly. I eventually gave up in irritation, and in fact have no idea whether the series ever ended. (Last time I checked the Company was in some alternate world sleeping or something.)

If he wanted to start a new story, with new characters, in the same world, that would have been fine. But squeezing the life out of Croaker and company was just too much.

(And the very notion of even beginning that Jordan tree-killing festival puts me to sleep.)

 

[Ibram]

Standard Issue Fantasy... I cannot stand the stuff
Its not that I have a problem with Dwarves being gruff, Elves being perfect nature lovers, and Orcs being evil but does it always have to be all three at the same time?

 

[Theron]

A few points on the above. medieval weaponry WAS heavy. Knights were trained from childhood to use it effectively. This was one of the reasons knights were so superior in combat. Someone trained in combat from childhood vs a barely trained conscripts is going to be a very uneven contest.

First, let me say no. Second, still no. I've handled and fought in replica medieval armour for nearly 20 years. I've held authentic medieval swords. The average weight of a medieval longsword was about 3.5 lbs. A full kit of gothic plate armour (not tourney plate) weighs about 65 lbs, tops. That's less weight than a WWII US Paratrooper carried into battle and a whole heck of a lot better distributed.

Medieval armies were also seldom composed of untrained conscripts. Most of the foot were townsmen and members of the guilds whose military duty was akin to being in the National Guard. They trained at least once a month. The pay records are all there. You don't conscript your peasants and farmers unless you're desperate, because 1) they can't fight worth a darn, and 2) when they die or run off everybody starves.

Your point about a knight being better trained is rather self-evident. The conrois of the 13th century Kingdom of Syria trained as a unit three to four times a week. That's a pretty impressive standard of preparedness even by the standards of today's military.

As for a poignard or rapier being as effective as a broadsword/mace/flail etc- only when out of arnor or in the renaisance era. In battle where knights were armored, weapons like a poignard or rapier are pretty ineffective unless you got lucky and got it into an unprotected gap. A tactic used was for the conscripts to swarm a knight, pull him down and punch daggers/agricultural implements/sharpened sticks into the gaps in the armor. (and killing the horse was just not an option, the price of a decent warhorse being immense)

See above regarding my experience. To a point, you're preaching to the choir.

However, I am not speaking strictly of the battlefield, nor am I everyone is wearing the best possible protection. Typically medieval/renaissance people did not truck around in armour all the time. Which is one major reason why the sword remained the most popular weapon among the upper classes, particularly as a symbol and for civilian wear. Walking around in field plate in a city was a major no-no. Carrying a sword was just your right according to your station.

The key is choosing the right tool for the job. No warrior with half a brain took a rapier on to a battlefield. A basic understanding the interaction of weapons vs. conditions vs. various means of self-protection isn't brain surgery, but it seems to be beyond the ken of too many writers I've encountered over the years.

Meh...it's just my own brand of snobbery, I suppose.

 

[drothgery]

Standard Issue Fantasy... I cannot stand the stuff
Its not that I have a problem with Dwarves being gruff, Elves being perfect nature lovers, and Orcs being evil but does it always have to be all three at the same time?

I'd disagree with that one. If you're going use classic fantasy names for races, then they should fit the archetype (generally speaking; individual exceptions are okay, but they should clearly be the exception, not the rule), or at least be descended from people who did. Don't call your tall, thin, aloof, nature-loving race "dwarves" just to be contrary. By the same token, if you're going to use a race that conforms to a classic fantasy archetype, then you should use the classic name for it. Don't call your big, ugly, stupid race "trollocs" just to be contrary (yes, trollocs don't look exactly like orcs and are the result of a mad scientist's genetic engineering experiment that wasn't a complete success, but that's hardly important to the backstory of The Wheel of Time).

 

[jester47]

I agree with most everyone here. Which is cool.

Does anyone know of a story that does not have any of the above annoyances? I would really like to read that if its well written.

Aaron.

 

[Theron]

I'm rather fond of Ellen Kushner's novel Swordspoint, though it's not everyone's cup of tea (it has a fair bit of homosexual content, nothing particularly graphic IMHO, but some folks may not be on board for that in their fantasy fiction).

To my mind, George R. R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire generally avoids the traps that I find annoying (yeah, Jon is a bit of a farmboy, but even he has depth).

I have a soft spot in my heart for Michael Reaves' The Shattered World as well, for all its D&Dishness.

 

[Argent Favrelauch]

First, let me say no. Second, still no. I've handled and fought in replica medieval armour for nearly 20 years. I've held authentic medieval swords. The average weight of a medieval longsword was about 3.5 lbs. A full kit of gothic plate armour (not tourney plate) weighs about 65 lbs, tops. That's less weight than a WWII US Paratrooper carried into battle and a whole heck of a lot better distributed.//


3.5 lbs *is* heavy. Especially after several minutes of waving it around, or smacking it into shields and armor, or through flesh and bone. Not that that obviates your point.

Chain mail is not nearly so well distributed. Of course, neither is modern combat armor.



//The key is choosing the right tool for the job. No warrior with half a brain took a rapier on to a battlefield. A basic understanding the interaction of weapons vs. conditions vs. various means of self-protection isn't brain surgery, but it seems to be beyond the ken of too many writers I've encountered over the years.

Meh...it's just my own brand of snobbery, I suppose.

Part of the problem is that rapiers are a post gunpowder devlopment, after armor started to go out of style since it couldn't reliably protect you from bullets. Not that it couldn't stop bullets...it just didn't do so reliably..and even when it did you got hurt. So you wouldn't see the two together very often anyway.
But your points are quite valid.

 

[Theron]

Part of the problem is that rapiers are a post gunpowder devlopment, after armor started to go out of style since it couldn't reliably protect you from bullets. Not that it couldn't stop bullets...it just didn't do so reliably..and even when it did you got hurt. So you wouldn't see the two together very often anyway.
But your points are quite valid.

The biggest problem with armour is mobility and heat buildup. Even in the high middle ages, unmounted warriors tended to leave their arms and legs unarmoured, and tended towards unvisored helms unless they knew they were facing massed archers. The additional risk seems to have been considered worth the trade-off in overall mobility.

 

[rogueattorney]

I agree with most everyone here. Which is cool.

Does anyone know of a story that does not have any of the above annoyances? I would really like to read that if its well written.

Aaron.

I like China Mieville's Bas-Lag novels - Perdido Street Station and The Scar. (I've not had a chance to read Iron Council, which just came out.) They're defiantly wierd and jammed packed with ideas, sub-plots, and strangeness.

I'm currently reading Gregory MacGuire's Wicked, which is the re-telling of Wizard of Oz sympathetic to the Witch. It's quite good.

And of course, you can always go back and read the old classics prior to everyone (starting with Brooks) trying to mimic Tolkien - Moorcock's Elric stories, Howard's Conan stories, Vance's Dying Earth stories, Lieber's Newhon stories, etc., etc.

R.A.

R.A.