Another Grognard Reviews 4e based on KotS

[mmadsen]

Starts at about 2nd-3rd level in offensive power (in the terms of earlier editions), with a slow drip of power increases.

I think most people would agree that slower, steadier advancement works better, and that low-level characters seemed almost comically inept in some ways, but I do wish the game retained a simple way to play, say, the hobbits from Fellowship and not just Legolas and Gimli. There's a place for true first-level characters, even if we don't want characters to default to that low power level.

I like Boot Hill where you have a 1/6 chance of dying every time you get shot.

I didn't realize that was the rule in Boot Hill. Cool.

No longer a simulation of anything but itself.

I don't think D&D has been a simulation of anything but itself for a while now; it's not a new complaint. Supposedly the new edition will be modular enough that you can tear out the parts that don't work for you, but I certainly have my doubts.

The fighter has now has magical power of healing and of mind controling enemies into attacking them.

I think you're way overstating your case. Old-school healing never made any sense. I think the designers made a mistake in not revising the new system far enough, because "hit" points clearly aren't about enduring hits.

And "marking" may be poorly implemented, but engaging a foe makes perfect sense.

If D&D 4e is simulating anything, it's simulating computer gaming. Perhaps necessary, but to me, sad.

Them's fightin' words, 'round these here parts.

The Wizard is just uppowered -- 3rd level instead of 1st -- and nicely gets lots of free, automatic spells -- Light and Magic Missile at will. No more resource management needed for the basics.

The free, automatic spells take D&D even further in a direction I've never liked -- cheap, easy magic.

The sad part is that writing all that out manually would be too tedious to do now -- pushing D&D to be a computer game, even if played in person.

It's not like everyone writes down all their feat descriptions in 3.5E -- or wrote down all their spell descriptions in previous editions.

To me, I'm seeing a game that's something like 60% D&D and 40% new content, with a setting that's 60% Gygaxian and 40% something else. Dragonborn ain't real D&D. Nothing wrong with new games, but I'm sad the old game is no longer being made.

I'm not too concerned with keeping D&D's pedigree pure, but some of the additions do seem odd. Dragonborn? In the PHB? Really? But no frost giant or iron golem in the MM? Just odd.

 

[PrecociousApprentice]

I see all the fluff changes in 4e as stupid. I will not be using them. Dragonborn, teiflings, I would rather not put them in my campaigns. The cosmology is also dumpable. I have never used the core cosmology.

With that said, I think that the new rules are more fun than the older rules. They will take a little getting used to, and many might take a change in perspective to buy into, but I have never had any real attachment to any of the D&Disms. Even my "simulation" days were mostly trying to "simulate" fantasy literature and movies that were not D&D. They were inspirations for D&D, but definitely not the collage of things that is D&D.

I think that with a little creativity I will get everything in my previous campaigns to fit into 4e. I will also get everything that I want in fantasy literature to fit in 4e. Maybe not perfectly, but better than any previous editions could.

As far as rules go, I can undrstand peoples objections to the WTF moments where, say two marks can't be placed simultaneously on one adversary. I will just have a "Move along, nothing to see here," moment. Every edition had them, nothing new. I just like the new rules better. I had taken a little break from gaming because 3.x was not fun to prep for. I have been playing since 1986, and maybe that qualifies me as a grognard, maybe not, but I am back and excited about gaming again. That in itself says someting about the new game. Maybe you like the earlier editions. Great, have fun, and if we can ever get together I am sure I would have a good time in your game. I am just glad I will never have to prep for 3.x again.

 

[KarinsDad]

As for the complaints that D&D was never meant to simulate anything, sure, it's not super realistic of anything, but I believe the rules were created to simulate -- to be like -- something outside the game. That's not necessarily real life

Actually, many many aspects of it are real life. Gravity. Wind. Weapons. Food. Commerce.

The argument that DND does not simulate these well does not mean that it does not model them.

DND is a model of the real world combined with a model of a magical world. Always has been. The real world model elements allow people to comprehend and co-relate to what is happening, regardless of whether what is happening is magical or not.

A fireball still burns.

The Fighter in 4E now has powers. People can model those powers in their head as mundane, but they really are not. The ability to automatically damage a creature because it does not do an attack against you is not mundane weapon skill or positioning advantage. It is a superpower (or a different type of magic) disguised as a mundane combat ability.

 

[Jim Williams]

(D&D is no) longer a simulation of anything but itself.

In some ways this might wind up being the single most encompassing statement about 4E.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing.

D&D is its own brand. To those that do not play RPGs, D&D IS the only RPG.

D&D was initially a fusion between table-top miniature wargames and myths, legends, and fantasy stories of the written and oral traditions. Movie-making is finally reaching a point where the fantastic can be shown in a believable fashion and D&D has drawn inspiration from that genre over the years as well. Of course, online media has become the latest source to tap for ideas (which, ironically, partially draw from D&D as its own source of inspiration).

D&D is all of these things and none of these things.

The fact that 4E might simulate nothing more than itself could be one of its greatest innovations. Time will tell, of course. But I am interested in seeing D&D forge its own destiny, inspired by other media, yet maintaining its own identity.

 

[PrecociousApprentice]

The automatic damage mark is the paladin's. He is a divine character, not a martial or mundane character.

On to more important things, the gravity, commerce, etc... of the game are still in, in about the same way they always have been. Not as rules. It is only the things that require agreement about how the narration of the story goes require a rule for them. None of us want the cops and robbers "I shot you!", "No you didn't!" moments. Rules are to cover these. Rules are not as necessary for the things we can all agree on, like whether gravity works. The simulator for those is in your imagination. It is the game elements that need a simulator, and the most important quality for their output is whether it is fun. Your fun might be quantifying the force in newtons brought to bear by a warhammer by a character of X strength, falling from Y height, but I am ok with a significant degree of abstraction. Makes the game smoother.

 

[Aria Silverhands]

I like the cosmology changes myself. The Great Wheel and all its connections were too much for a campaign setting. Each one was a world in and of itself pretty much. My biggest issue with 4e is the Hit Points/Healing Surge issue. They should have dumped that sacred cow and went with something else, like I have. I'm renaming hit points to Endurance, to remove the stigma that hit points = wounds, injuries, burns, etc.

 

[Jack99]

The Fighter in 4E now has powers. People can model those powers in their head as mundane, but they really are not. The ability to automatically damage a creature because it does not do an attack against you is not mundane weapon skill or positioning advantage. It is a superpower (or a different type of magic) disguised as a mundane combat ability.

Except the fighter's marking doesn't do that, it gives a -2 tohit. The PALADIN's marking is the one which damages the foe. You know, the DIVINE warrior guy that has been doing supernatural things since whenever edition he was introduced.

Ups...

 

[Blackeagle]

I think the big difference in 4E is the media it's based on- D&D is no longer really influenced by classic fantasy literature- like Conan, John Carter, and the Dying Earth.

I really think that 4e is much closer to Conan, for instance, than 3e was. Combat in 4e really seems to have a Conan-ish feel to me and the rules are a lot more modular, making it easier to get rid of the non-Conan bits. Doing a Conan campaign in 3e pretty much requires a separate version of the rules. It seems like all that a Conan campaign in 4e will require is pulling out the classes with arcane and divine power sources (ritual magic only) and removing the non-human races.

 

[ThirdWizard]

The automatic damage mark is the paladin's. He is a divine character, not a martial or mundane character.

Awww... I had a snappy comeback, too.

Now I have to rebuild the entire camouflaged shelter to jump out of when least expected.

 

[haakon1]

I didn't realize that was the rule in Boot Hill. Cool.

In Boot Hill 2nd Edition at least, 1d6 damage, 6 means you're dead. And head shots do +1 damage, while limb shots do -1, as I remember. Hit location determination was random, I believe on a d10, though that might have been a house rule or stolen from another game.

The free, automatic spells take D&D even further in a direction I've never liked -- cheap, easy magic.

Nod.

I'm not too concerned with keeping D&D's pedigree pure, but some of the additions do seem odd. Dragonborn? In the PHB? Really? But no frost giant or iron golem in the MM? Just odd.

Maybe they are just holding back a lot of stuff to sell additional books? D&D without frost giants and iron golems doesn't seem whole to me. I was annoyed at some of the stuff that was dropped from the 3e MM, but Tome of Horrors quickly filled in the gaps, and later MM's re-added some of it. I hope 4e is "fully baked" out of the box (as 3e was), and not intentionally holding back parts of the full game for future sales reasons . . .

As for Precocious Apprentice's cry of pain about prepping for 3e DMing, oh, believe me, I hear you . . . that and "unplayability" at upper levels go hand in hand. Way too complicated when the superpowers start adding up. Fun, but way too complicated.