Another Immortals Handbook thread

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again!

Yep. I don't run a divine campaign (although I did have one character ascend once... but only to quasi-deity, and then only with a sponsor), so I'm not particularly qualified to address the ultra-high level issues, but I feel quite good addressing epic levels. I've run a few games that have gone into epic levels, and I've written a pretty good number of epic feats to go along with my game. I thought if I was able to help I'd do so.

If something is balanced from the beginning then it should be balanced ad infinitum.

Tavidar, the self-taught lich mage, took these feats extensively into the low-mid epic levels. They weren't a problem for him.

Relatively easy for a PC to keep track of things as they ascend.

I agree that there's a degree of complexity for making NPCs that doesn't so much matter for PCs, but I do prefer the core mechanic. Perhaps if I get lazy enough I'll look into them at length, but until then I'll likely keep it as is. I also have a fair deal invensted in custom feats building on these, you see.

Ah...the plot thickens.

Oh, I agree with this. I just tend to think the feats can be modified simply b making them stack, rather than replacing the damage by +1d12 or whatnot.

Well the change in damage was to try and inject some uniformity with energy dealing d6 damage, aligned effects dealing d8 and bane effects d12. I agree its a minor change*, but an attractive one I think.

*As noted under each such changed entry.

Frankly these feats haven't attracted much attention, though they might if they were known to stack.

Every feat should attract attention, so obviously these aren't doing their jobs.

Epic Skill Focus has no significant requirements and gives more than triple the non-epic benefit. Legendary Reputation gives twice the bonus to twice the skills (total power x4 compared to, say, Acrobatic).

Well, according to the CR/EL system, skill focus feats should provide more than the +3 (non-epic). At least a base +5, or perhaps a +3 to two (related) skills, the minor increase representing a small synergy bonus.

As with the saving throw issue, all I am saying is that the feats should be the same at epic/non-epic levels.

Are you saying that Automatic Metamagic Capacity (which has trivial requirements for a Wiz21) is really going to be overshadowed by a +4 save feat?

No, what I am saying is that a feat that increases saving throws should be the same at epic level as it is at non-epic level.

Whether Great Fortitude or Epic Fortitude is the better balanced is debateable.

AMC provides a net +1 spell level increase. Could a 1st-level spell provide a +4 Fort save? Personally I think it probably could, which tells us that the +2 for Great Fortitude is perhaps too weaker rather than Epic Fortitude being too strong.

How about Fast Healing?

Actually, a word on that last one: How powerful is Fast Healing compared to Damage Reduction?

Personally I have been thinking that Fast Healing should be 4 per (epic) feat.

I don't feel that it is balanced even as an epic feat, since it grants more than half the benefits of +2 Con. I think Great Constitution is the better way (game-design-wise) of doing it, since you get all the benefits instead of just one outstripping the other.

I'm not suggesting that you stop using the feat, but I did want to remind you that not everyone uses such feats. Consider it one of my ideosynchrocies.

I can't properly address this without knowing the abilities, but I stand by my assertion that it's too weak as a cosmic ability. Perhaps if it did standard doubling instead of D&D doubling then it would be balanced as epic/divine/cosmic (x2/x4/x8)...? Again, I haven't run a divine campaign.

35th-level Demigod Paladin could have (using all its divine ability slots):

Example A (your idea of the double double)

Four smites per round, dealing +280 damage per smite (+1020 assuming all hit), thats enough to kill an average Lesser God.

Example B (my idea)

Three smites per round, dealing +140 damage per smite (+420 assuming all hit), thats certainly going to make a serious dent in the average demigod, but remember the Paladin is pretty min/maxed. for smiting.

Admittedly, though, this has nothing to do with the feat itself.

Agreed, I probably have more of an issue with the immunity to mind affecting effects for any intelligent creature.

No. Here's the mathematically equal breakdown:

20/x5 = 19/x3 = 18/x2.33 = 17/x2
20/x4 = 19/x2.5 = 18/x2 = 17/x1.75
20/x3 = 19/x2 = 18/x1.67 = 17/x1.5

20/xA = 19/x(A/2+0.5) = 18/x(A/3+0.67) = 17/x(A/4+0.75) = X/(A/(21-X)+(20-X)/(21-X))

This is tempered somewhat by game concerns, but these are largely self-balancing (large crits and large crit ranges are often wasted).

What are you using for the confirmation roll?

At epic levels chances are you hit more often than not, so the higher you ascend the more the confirmation roll is going to be marginalised.

In fact I am considering a feat/ability(?) called Threatening Critical which allows you to ignore the confirmation roll altogether.

(Perfect Health)

Maybe. I don't know how much diseases are used in the ultra-high levels, but I'd think not that often. This would be more your realm than mine.

Well the feat makes you immune to all natural diseases and poisons, but what darn natural disease/poison is going to defeat an epic characters saves anyway?

Well, since I don't know what exactly it is then, I'll leave it without further comment.

Well, for instance, incorporeality grants a 50% miss chance, but its not treated as concealment.

Yes.

Look in your 3.5 Player's Handbook, though: it has Improved Precise Shot.

Further, note that concealment in melee has no good counter.

Exactly, which only compounds the discrepancy.

(Vorpal Strike)

I don't know how powerful it is, just that if it's too strong then vorpal needs to become a +6 ability. I don't think it is, so I tend to think the feat's fine. Again, this one comes down to experience more than anything.

As far as I can see vorpal weapons become more effective the higher you ascend; more attacks and much better chance of hitting. The problem is probably inherant within its quasi-absolute mechanic. Maybe the vorpal ability should increase the weapons critical multiplier instead...?

 

[Sledge]

UK I already do that with vorpal weapons. Increase the multiplier that is. I realized back in 2e that vorpal became inanely dangerous, when the heros were fighting Balor's. In 3e with criticals as they are, vorpal became a no-brainer. Vorpal now just adds to the critical multiplier.
It works very well and I haven't had one complaint yet.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Ah...the plot thickens.

I prefer the standard system alone for many reasons, even for NPCs. It's incomparably better for me with the addition of my custom feats, since they're designed by me for my campaign. If at level 50 (or 500 for that matter) I decide to give up preferences for convenience I'll do that, reluctantly, as needed. Frankly I may not even abandon it then; I might just find an easier way to track it.

Every feat should attract attention, so obviously these aren't doing their jobs.

In principle I agree, but the Epic Level Handbook alone has 152 feats... there are only so many that can be taken by a mid-level epic group. Considering that I allow nearly 200 epic feats in my game, there are a lot of good feats that don't get much attention.

Well, according to the CR/EL system, skill focus feats should provide more than the +3 (non-epic). At least a base +5, or perhaps a +3 to two (related) skills, the minor increase representing a small synergy bonus.

As with the saving throw issue, all I am saying is that the feats should be the same at epic/non-epic levels.

Craig, I'm a pragmatist. I see that Skill Focus is a little weak, but since people in my campaigns still take it (at +3; no one really took it at +2) it doesn't seem that bad. Nonepic save feats are very common in my games; Iron Will especially is considered a 'must have' for many character types. For this reason I say the nonepic save feats are balanced (perhaps on the strong side for IW).

The epic save feats have never been taken, and no one has even expressed interest in eventually getting them. They're just dead weight. This leads me to the conclusion that they're weak, and I think that most would agree with me. You would halve their power in the name of balance, and yet I would much sooner see them at +5 then +2.

Personally I have been thinking that Fast Healing should be 4 per (epic) feat.

Wow, that's strong. I'll hold off on that one.

35th-level Demigod Paladin could have (using all its divine ability slots):

Example A (your idea of the double double)

Four smites per round, dealing +280 damage per smite (+1020 assuming all hit), thats enough to kill an average Lesser God.

Example B (my idea)

Three smites per round, dealing +140 damage per smite (+420 assuming all hit), thats certainly going to make a serious dent in the average demigod, but remember the Paladin is pretty min/maxed. for smiting.

I don't understand your breakdowns. My idea:

Great Smiting [Epic]: Smites do double damage.
DA/SDA Divine Smiting (requires Great Smiting): Smites deal quadruple damage.

This would allow your example paladin to deal +140 damage per smite at the cost of 1 epic feat and 1 divine ability. I don't understand where you get +280, nor why mine smites 4 times and yours only 3.

What are you using for the confirmation roll?

At epic levels chances are you hit more often than not, so the higher you ascend the more the confirmation roll is going to be marginalised.

It doesn't matter. The result is exactly the same (percentage-wise) as long as you can hit on all of your threat range and none of the damage is wasted.

If you confirm 95% of the time, the results I wrote stand and the ones you wrote will fail.

In fact I am considering a feat/ability(?) called Threatening Critical which allows you to ignore the confirmation roll altogether.

This would be unbalanced at low levels and weak at high levels. Don't do it, please -- it makes every hit against a 'hard' creature a crit, but not all against 'weak' creatures, throwing sense out the window. Bad balance + nonsensical in-game interpretation = bad idea.

Well the feat makes you immune to all natural diseases and poisons, but what darn natural disease/poison is going to defeat an epic characters saves anyway?

Of course.

Well, for instance, incorporeality grants a 50% miss chance, but its not treated as concealment.

Yes, but I know what a character can do to get around incorporeality. I don't know what (if anything) would let a character avoid this ability.

Exactly, which only compounds the discrepancy.

The fact that the epic feat does almost nothing and yet you've rated it overpowered means nothing to you, I see. That's fine; we'll just agree to disagree.

As far as I can see vorpal weapons become more effective the higher you ascend; more attacks and much better chance of hitting. The problem is probably inherant within its quasi-absolute mechanic. Maybe the vorpal ability should increase the weapons critical multiplier instead...?

This has been suggested by many people and might be the best solution. I haven't decided how to address it in my game yet.

 

[Wolv0rine]

Hey Wolv0rine mate!
You have to try and fathom the unfathomable with cosmic stories sometimes.

Cosmic characters all (purportedly) wield infinite power. The only difference is how quickly they can bring it to bear.

I think the example used is that if you count only even numbers up to infinity, then you still arrive at an infinite number, but the sum total of your numbers would be less than if you count both odd and even numbers.

Okay, but (and don't think me daft, please) how does that address an entity slaying the Galactus of every universe when it was shown/said/whatever that there is only a single Galactus in all universes. I'm not sure if that was only an Excalibur thing or not (they went pretty far at one point with the whole Cross-Time Caper thing), but it was pretty solidly put forward that there's only One Galactus.
Then again, it's not like anything's set in stone in comics.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Sledge mate!

UK I already do that with vorpal weapons. Increase the multiplier that is. I realized back in 2e that vorpal became inanely dangerous, when the heros were fighting Balor's. In 3e with criticals as they are, vorpal became a no-brainer. Vorpal now just adds to the critical multiplier. It works very well and I haven't had one complaint yet.

I'm wondering if it should add +1, +2 or double the critical multiplier? What boost do you use?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey CRGreathouse dude!

I prefer the standard system alone for many reasons, even for NPCs. It's incomparably better for me with the addition of my custom feats, since they're designed by me for my campaign. If at level 50 (or 500 for that matter) I decide to give up preferences for convenience I'll do that, reluctantly, as needed. Frankly I may not even abandon it then; I might just find an easier way to track it.

I was only teasing you mate.

Trying to work out the spell lists for the Bestiary using the old system was soul destroying. I think my new system is a lot quicker, cleaner and does much the same thing for far fewer feats.

In principle I agree, but the Epic Level Handbook alone has 152 feats... there are only so many that can be taken by a mid-level epic group. Considering that I allow nearly 200 epic feats in my game, there are a lot of good feats that don't get much attention.

I am not saying there are feats that won't get taken but all feats should tease players into choosing them.

Craig, I'm a pragmatist. I see that Skill Focus is a little weak, but since people in my campaigns still take it (at +3; no one really took it at +2) it doesn't seem that bad. Nonepic save feats are very common in my games; Iron Will especially is considered a 'must have' for many character types. For this reason I say the nonepic save feats are balanced (perhaps on the strong side for IW).

The epic save feats have never been taken, and no one has even expressed interest in eventually getting them. They're just dead weight. This leads me to the conclusion that they're weak, and I think that most would agree with me. You would halve their power in the name of balance, and yet I would much sooner see them at +5 then +2.

So are you suggesting that (for example) epic feats need to be twice as powerful as non-epic feats?

Wow, that's strong. I'll hold off on that one.

I know, its difficult getting a handle on Fast Healing.

I don't understand your breakdowns. My idea:

Great Smiting [Epic]: Smites do double damage.
DA/SDA Divine Smiting (requires Great Smiting): Smites deal quadruple damage.

This would allow your example paladin to deal +140 damage per smite at the cost of 1 epic feat and 1 divine ability. I don't understand where you get +280, nor why mine smites 4 times and yours only 3.

I was min/maxing.

Epic - Increase Smite Damage; Epic - Increase Smite Frequency Per Round; Divine - Increase Smite Damage; Divine - Increase Smite Frequency Per Round; Cosmic - Increase Smite Damage.

Your idea doubles frequency and damage once for epic, once for divine and then damage again of x8 with the cosmic.

My idea adds two smites per round and adds three to the smite multiplier.

It doesn't matter. The result is exactly the same (percentage-wise) as long as you can hit on all of your threat range and none of the damage is wasted.

If you confirm 95% of the time, the results I wrote stand and the ones you wrote will fail.

Maybe you can help solve the vorpal problem below...

This would be unbalanced at low levels and weak at high levels. Don't do it, please -- it makes every hit against a 'hard' creature a crit, but not all against 'weak' creatures, throwing sense out the window. Bad balance + nonsensical in-game interpretation = bad idea.

Good point.

Of course.

Yes, but I know what a character can do to get around incorporeality. I don't know what (if anything) would let a character avoid this ability.

Only an opposed epic, divine or cosmic ability.

The fact that the epic feat does almost nothing and yet you've rated it overpowered means nothing to you, I see. That's fine; we'll just agree to disagree.

As with a few other cases, I am not so much attacking the feat itself as attacking the possibility of

This has been suggested by many people and might be the best solution. I haven't decided how to address it in my game yet.

The trick would be to accurately guesstimate exactly how much of a critical multiplier the +5 market modifier was worth. Does your above equation for critical hits help us in this regard I wonder?

My problem is that I have to consider the ramifications of this type of ability when the likes of Thor takes the cosmic version in tandem with Mjolnir and hes dealing x24 damage on a crit and threatening on a 14-20...or something like that.

Should Keen* stack with Improved Critical, should Razor stack with Superior Critical (Divine), should Mono stack with Perfect Critical (Cosmic)...?

*Or its bludgeoning peer.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Wolv0rine dude!

Okay, but (and don't think me daft, please) how does that address an entity slaying the Galactus of every universe when it was shown/said/whatever that there is only a single Galactus in all universes. I'm not sure if that was only an Excalibur thing or not (they went pretty far at one point with the whole Cross-Time Caper thing), but it was pretty solidly put forward that there's only One Galactus. Then again, it's not like anything's set in stone in comics.

Probably doesn't explain it, but I was simply wanting to point out that they can make the impossible possible.

Its likely that statement about Galactus was retconned.

The only beings who exist outside the universe (to the best of my knowledge) are the Living Tribunal and probably the Infinites and the True Beyonders...and maybe Atleza?

 

[Wolv0rine]

Hey Wolv0rine dude!
Probably doesn't explain it, but I was simply wanting to point out that they can make the impossible possible.

Well, given that magic is anything you don't understand, and performing the impossible is somewhat expected of cosmic beings, I'd have to agree.

Its likely that statement about Galactus was retconned.

The only beings who exist outside the universe (to the best of my knowledge) are the Living Tribunal and probably the Infinites and the True Beyonders...and maybe Atleza?

Likely either retconned or ignored. I'm tempted to say something like "Frell, I'm glad my interest shifted back to DC in the last decade", but it's not like they're any better. They just commit the same sins in different colors.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

okay, the big news of the night, Northern Ireland beat England 1:0 in the world cup qualifiers!

Well, given that magic is anything you don't understand, and performing the impossible is somewhat expected of cosmic beings, I'd have to agree.

I alway like the Marvel Cosmic stories. The DC stuff tends to be a bit more black and white.

Likely either retconned or ignored. I'm tempted to say something like "Frell, I'm glad my interest shifted back to DC in the last decade", but it's not like they're any better. They just commit the same sins in different colors.

The only serial comic I am buying at the moment is Godland by Image (though I'll be getting the forthcoming Thor: Tales of Asgard miniseries naturally). You can read the full first issue in the following link, its a totally awesome book.

http://www.newsarama.com/Image/Godland/issue01/Godland01Pre.htm

 

[Sledge]

Yes Improved Critical and Keen are supposed to stack, I've seen the numbers, I've done the numbers, it just isn't very worthwhile otherwise. They were designed to stack, and so they should.
I'm not sure for some reason what Razor and Mono are btw...

Anyway while vorpal is very expensive, a high level fighter with an increase to his multiplier is crazy deadly. With Improved Crit and Keen stacking from an 18-20 perspective becomes 12-20 which means 45% of rolls threaten. Not all of them will of course, but you need to consider the worst case scenario. For a high strength fighter every multiplier is worth a +2 to a +3 at a minimum. For the opposite end of the spectrum when crits are rare, the multiplier is almost valueless. Because of all that I equate vorpal to +2 to the multiplier. However, it has yet to see use be an insanely strong opponent. When that happens I may revise my number. This ability seems to be one that vastly improves for stronger (higher base damage) opponents.
The solution of course is to have more items that reduce crits rather than negate them, but I haven't gone that far as yet.