Another Immortals Handbook thread

[CRGreathouse]

Here's my massive critique of U_K's Revising Epic Feats.


1. Armor Skin

I think this feat is fine as written and too weak at +1. Clearly someone at Wizards agrees with you though, as when they reprinted Armor Skin it gave a +1 bonus. Frankly I think it's a little weak if anything at +2.

2. Automatic Quicken Spell
3. Automatic Silent Spell
4. Automatic Still Spell
19. Improved Metamagic
23. Multispell

I still like these feats, and tend to prefer them to your new system.

5. Bane of Enemies
6. Chaotic Rage
16. Holy Strike
29. Righteous Strike
31. Thundering Rage
33. Unholy Strike

These changes are probably good, though I'd just as soon simply strike the '(doesn't stack)'.

7. Damage Reduction

You're probably right here; this is a little too popular at +3/--.

10. Epic Dodge

Your critique is probably accurate, much as I like the feat as written, but your revision is much too weak. With those prerequisites no one would ever take it; without any prerequisites other than Dodge, it would be taken only rarely I suspect.

11. Epic Fortitude
12. Epic Reflexes
14. Epic Will

I don't know what you're thinking, these are fine as is. In fact, they're weak enough I rarely see them taken, even though Iron Will is fairly popular in my games.

13. Epic Toughness

I agree that it's weak, although I will note it was revised later to +30. Some of us, though, don't use Improved Toughness in their games -- I won't allow players to take it at all. I don't even allow it as an epic feat.

15. Great Smiting

I'm not sure I agree with your fix, nor that it represents as great a problem as you suggest. I'll have to look into the issue more carefully before passing judgement; you may be right, although I'm sure this is too weak as a cosmic or even divine ability.

17. Improved Combat Reflexes

Attacks of Opportunity have many problems in their current manifestation, and this simply reveals them. I don't like the feat conceptually, although in practice I suspect it's extremely weak for an epic feat.

18. Improved Heighten Spell

I agree, this is what I've done ever since the ELH came out.

20. Improved Spell Capacity

I rather like this feat, and certainly prefer it to the system you propose. I especially like how synergistic it is with ability scores.

21. Infinite Deflection

This is, as you say, "more a problem with deflection itself rather than infinite deflection". You don't propose a fix for the epic feat itself, only for the underlying nonepic feat, but this seems appropriate.

22. Intensify Spell

You're probably right that this isn't needed; your Metamagic Freedom or something like it is surely a better solution. I'm not sure what the perfect fix is yet; for the time being, I allow this in my game. No one's taken it yet.

24. Music of the Gods

I don't agree in general that immunity to mind-affecting effects "should probably be a bonus rather than an immunity". Some things just literally don't have minds.

25. Overwhelming Critical

I like the simplicity of this change, but note that it's not balanced -- this gives almost no benefit to, say, picks and a very powerful benefit to 18-20 weapons.

26. Perfect Health

Your suggestion is absurdly weak, although the epic feat as written is similarly weak.

27. Perfect Multi-weapon Fighting

I'm not sure where I stand on this one.

28. Polyglot

Your suggestion is silly (it's just ESF (Decipher Script)). I like the ability as written; it's a lot of fun. I had a character (a very intelligent fighter) set this as his goal and eventually achieve it, to great effect.

30. Self-Concealment

You don't recommend any changes to the feat, which is fine. The Transcendental ability sounds pretty weak, though.

32. Uncanny Accuracy

You've got to be kidding. I'm stunned you think this is overpowered.

34. Vorpal Strike

I don't think this is so powerful, considering that the basic vorpal ability is available to PCs from about level 12. I'm not sure how powerful it is, but unless divine powers are a lot weaker than I thought they were this isn't on par with them.

 

[Sledge]

I've got to say, that I agree about Polyglot. Your suggestion is embarassing. Any character with Polyglot as it currently stands, is not gaining a lot from it. But your suggestion is flat out useless. It's less useful than a 3rd level spell.

Multiattack is currently a problem so I see no problem with your suggestions there by the way.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey guys!

Haven't been online much in the past 24 hours. By the way, I forgot to mention that on Sunday I got to watch the D&D movie sequel - Wrath of the Dragon God.

You can read my thoughts on it here:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=145870

Power as in the pursuit of power. Is that a little more explanatory?

Slightly.

I'm not sure how else to put it.

So do those steps need to be taken in order?

Well, technically you can't gain a portfolio before you become an immortal. However, I am working on a way in which you can use portfolios as basic character/monster templates - so under those circumstances you wouldn't need to be an immortal first.

The Pantheon Tasks are optional

You know it would be really nice if we could have the finished book soon.

I know...and hello Anabstercorian too.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey U_K!

Hiya mate!

You have an idea there as Eternity's essence seems to spring more from the spirit of things rather than time.

Well its been stated that he is the embodiment of all life in the universe.

The only potential problems I see are that he is so often portrayed as rather selfish and infantile, more concerned with form rather than substance.

Well at that strata of power, beings are probably far more used to seeing the 'big picture' and acting accordingly.

Abraxas is the best candidate to come to mind, although I think his showings are more consistent with a Time Lord that has "gone off the reservation" so to speak, dominated by chaos (primarily) and evil (secondarily).

Similarly Hunger might be a Time Lord dominated by Entropy.

The fact that he was purging every universe of Galactus also seems consistent with Time Lord status (I think?).

It's actually very difficult to find a genuine First One of matter/evil in the MU. Walker, Dormmamu, and Ego are each appealing in their own ways but lack overall. My next best guess would be something that Dr. Strange has encountered.

Well its certainly not Dormammu - if anything hes a champion of chaos (much like Thanos is/was a champion of death).

Walker is slightly more complicated, but it appears he was a powerful force of entropy who almost displaced death.

Ego is far too weak to be the first one of matter, however its possible that Super-Ego (whom you may or may not be familiar with?) could fit this role. He took on an army of Celestials.

That definitely makes sense and would give Warlock an IH counterpart. Both halves actually behave as if they are of good alignment.

Warlock would be the champion of soul/spirit.

Maybe the In-Betweener has androgyne powers?

Almost certainly.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Wolv0rine mate!

How can someone purge every universe of Galactus, seeing as how it was shown that the Galactus that exists in the 616 universe is the same Galactus that exists in all the others? Keeping in mind that my comics knowledge (and Marvel knowledge in specific) is a good 10-15 years old.

You have to try and fathom the unfathomable with cosmic stories sometimes.

Cosmic characters all (purportedly) wield infinite power. The only difference is how quickly they can bring it to bear.

I think the example used is that if you count only even numbers up to infinity, then you still arrive at an infinite number, but the sum total of your numbers would be less than if you count both odd and even numbers.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi UK!

Hiya dude!

I think, that this thread http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=146613 might be of interest for you.

Thanks.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Here's my massive critique of U_K's Revising Epic Feats.

I appreciate the response mate, there were a handful of feats even I wasn't sure about, so it will be good to thrash this about a bit.

1. Armor Skin

I think this feat is fine as written and too weak at +1. Clearly someone at Wizards agrees with you though, as when they reprinted Armor Skin it gave a +1 bonus. Frankly I think it's a little weak if anything at +2.

I'm torn on this one to be honest, in a perfect world it would be +1.66.

2. Automatic Quicken Spell
3. Automatic Silent Spell
4. Automatic Still Spell
19. Improved Metamagic
23. Multispell

I still like these feats, and tend to prefer them to your new system.

Lets see if you still think that when your guys reach mid-epic levels.

5. Bane of Enemies
6. Chaotic Rage
16. Holy Strike
29. Righteous Strike
31. Thundering Rage
33. Unholy Strike

These changes are probably good, though I'd just as soon simply strike the '(doesn't stack)'.

If they don't stack then theres no net gain for someone like the Paladin to take such a feat if they have a Holy sword, Holy Avenger, Holy Power weapon.

7. Damage Reduction

You're probably right here; this is a little too popular at +3/--.

Indeed.

10. Epic Dodge

Your critique is probably accurate, much as I like the feat as written, but your revision is much too weak. With those prerequisites no one would ever take it; without any prerequisites other than Dodge, it would be taken only rarely I suspect.

This could be tied in with your thoughts on Armor Skin. If you think Armor Skin should be +2 then Dodge should be +3 and Epic Dodge +6.

11. Epic Fortitude
12. Epic Reflexes
14. Epic Will

I don't know what you're thinking, these are fine as is. In fact, they're weak enough I rarely see them taken, even though Iron Will is fairly popular in my games.

If Great Fortitude is a +2 bonus how can Epic Fortitude be +4. Are you telling me that epic feats should be uniformly 'double' the power of regular feats (with no prerequisites)?

I mean I know Epic Weapon Focus is, but that should be +2 from the start.

13. Epic Toughness

I agree that it's weak, although I will note it was revised later to +30. Some of us, though, don't use Improved Toughness in their games -- I won't allow players to take it at all. I don't even allow it as an epic feat.

Why not? Its perfectly balanced, especially for epic games.

15. Great Smiting

I'm not sure I agree with your fix, nor that it represents as great a problem as you suggest. I'll have to look into the issue more carefully before passing judgement; you may be right, although I'm sure this is too weak as a cosmic or even divine ability.

Well I must admit that some part of my fears for this is seeing it in tandem with other divine/cosmic abilities.

17. Improved Combat Reflexes

Attacks of Opportunity have many problems in their current manifestation, and this simply reveals them. I don't like the feat conceptually, although in practice I suspect it's extremely weak for an epic feat.

Like I mention on the website theres no problem until you start toying with supernatural means of manipulating reach.

18. Improved Heighten Spell

I agree, this is what I've done ever since the ELH came out.

20. Improved Spell Capacity

I rather like this feat, and certainly prefer it to the system you propose. I especially like how synergistic it is with ability scores.

Try outfitting spell lists for a load of epic spellcasters and you will soon come to loathe this mechanic.

21. Infinite Deflection

This is, as you say, "more a problem with deflection itself rather than infinite deflection". You don't propose a fix for the epic feat itself, only for the underlying nonepic feat, but this seems appropriate.

22. Intensify Spell

You're probably right that this isn't needed; your Metamagic Freedom or something like it is surely a better solution. I'm not sure what the perfect fix is yet; for the time being, I allow this in my game. No one's taken it yet.

24. Music of the Gods

I don't agree in general that immunity to mind-affecting effects "should probably be a bonus rather than an immunity". Some things just literally don't have minds.

A lich is immune to mind-affecting effects and it has an intelligence.

A zombie is mindless, but can be controlled by a control undead.

If the feat were phrased along the lines of allowing it to affect mindless (as per control undead) creatures. Then thats okay. But I suppose I really wanted to point out that no intelligent creature should be immune to mind-affecting effects.

25. Overwhelming Critical

I like the simplicity of this change, but note that it's not balanced -- this gives almost no benefit to, say, picks and a very powerful benefit to 18-20 weapons.

I've went over this a few times and the current weapons are not balanced to begin with.

To be balanced a 20 crit attack needs a multiplier of x4, a 19-20 crit attack needs a multiplier of x2 and an 18-20 crit attack needs a multiplier of x1.5.

Technically, to keep things balanced you should use the staggered double progression (x1.5, x2, x3, x4, x6, x8, x12) with 18-20 weapons starting at x1.5.

26. Perfect Health

Your suggestion is absurdly weak, although the epic feat as written is similarly weak.

Maybe it should be a +10 bonus.

27. Perfect Multi-weapon Fighting

I'm not sure where I stand on this one.

Think about the Hindu deities with dozens upon dozens of attacks.

That said, I am working on a method to solve the effect of having multiple (smaller) arms on the same size frame has on strength.

28. Polyglot

Your suggestion is silly (it's just ESF (Decipher Script)). I like the ability as written; it's a lot of fun. I had a character (a very intelligent fighter) set this as his goal and eventually achieve it, to great effect.

I was sort of in two minds with this one. Although absolutes are broken by default, I was struggling to come up with a situation where this is going to break a game. I'll probably remove it from the list.

30. Self-Concealment

You don't recommend any changes to the feat, which is fine. The Transcendental ability sounds pretty weak, though.

Well it means that not only do you have to hit the tarrgets AC, but that you also only have a 1 in 8 chance that the blow actually connects. For many circumstances this is akin to multiplying hit points by 8...and its not really 'concealment' it should be said (in that Uncanny Accuracy won't trump it), I probably confused things by lumping it in there.

32. Uncanny Accuracy

You've got to be kidding. I'm stunned you think this is overpowered.

This one is sort of confusing.

If it takes one feat for an archer to reduce concealment by 90%, and it takes 5 feats for a character to gain self-concealment 50%, can they both be balanced?

34. Vorpal Strike

I don't think this is so powerful, considering that the basic vorpal ability is available to PCs from about level 12. I'm not sure how powerful it is, but unless divine powers are a lot weaker than I thought they were this isn't on par with them.

This one has been annoying me for ages, I'm grasping for an objective answer. Part of me says its too powerful, part of me thinks it isn't. I sort of adde it to get some feedback on it and help thrash it out in my head.

 

[CRGreathouse]

You have to try and fathom the unfathomable with cosmic stories sometimes.

Cosmic characters all (purportedly) wield infinite power. The only difference is how quickly they can bring it to bear.

I think the example used is that if you count only even numbers up to infinity, then you still arrive at an infinite number, but the sum total of your numbers would be less than if you count both odd and even numbers.

As a mathematician, I have to disagree -- and this seems to dull your point for me. Are you just trying to say that there are different 'degrees' of infinity? That is true, even though there are just as many even numbers as even + odd numbers. (This may seem both unusual and trivial to point out, but it isn't -- the fact that this is possible is what makes the whole numbers infinite in the first place!)

If you just want different 'sizes of infinity', use ω and C (little omega or aleph-null and the continuum).

 

[CRGreathouse]

I appreciate the response mate, there were a handful of feats even I wasn't sure about, so it will be good to thrash this about a bit.

Yep. I don't run a divine campaign (although I did have one character ascend once... but only to quasi-deity, and then only with a sponsor), so I'm not particularly qualified to address the ultra-high level issues, but I feel quite good addressing epic levels. I've run a few games that have gone into epic levels, and I've written a pretty good number of epic feats to go along with my game. I thought if I was able to help I'd do so.

Lets see if you still think that when your guys reach mid-epic levels.

Tavidar, the self-taught lich mage, took these feats extensively into the low-mid epic levels. They weren't a problem for him.

I agree that there's a degree of complexity for making NPCs that doesn't so much matter for PCs, but I do prefer the core mechanic. Perhaps if I get lazy enough I'll look into them at length, but until then I'll likely keep it as is. I also have a fair deal invensted in custom feats building on these, you see.

If they don't stack then theres no net gain for someone like the Paladin to take such a feat if they have a Holy sword, Holy Avenger, Holy Power weapon.

Oh, I agree with this. I just tend to think the feats can be modified simply b making them stack, rather than replacing the damage by +1d12 or whatnot. Frankly these feats haven't attracted much attention, though they might if they were known to stack.

If Great Fortitude is a +2 bonus how can Epic Fortitude be +4. Are you telling me that epic feats should be uniformly 'double' the power of regular feats (with no prerequisites)?

Epic Skill Focus has no significant requirements and gives more than triple the non-epic benefit. Legendary Reputation gives twice the bonus to twice the skills (total power x4 compared to, say, Acrobatic).

Are you saying that Automatic Metamagic Capacity (which has trivial requirements for a Wiz21) is really going to be overshadowed by a +4 save feat? How about Fast Healing?

Actually, a word on that last one: How powerful is Fast Healing compared to Damage Reduction?

Why not? Its perfectly balanced, especially for epic games.

I don't feel that it is balanced even as an epic feat, since it grants more than half the benefits of +2 Con. I think Great Constitution is the better way (game-design-wise) of doing it, since you get all the benefits instead of just one outstripping the other.

I'm not suggesting that you stop using the feat, but I did want to remind you that not everyone uses such feats. Consider it one of my ideosynchrocies.

Well I must admit that some part of my fears for this is seeing it in tandem with other divine/cosmic abilities.

I can't properly address this without knowing the abilities, but I stand by my assertion that it's too weak as a cosmic ability. Perhaps if it did standard doubling instead of D&D doubling then it would be balanced as epic/divine/cosmic (x2/x4/x8)...? Again, I haven't run a divine campaign.

If the feat were phrased along the lines of allowing it to affect mindless (as per control undead) creatures. Then thats okay. But I suppose I really wanted to point out that no intelligent creature should be immune to mind-affecting effects.

Admittedly, though, this has nothing to do with the feat itself.

I've went over this a few times and the current weapons are not balanced to begin with.

To be balanced a 20 crit attack needs a multiplier of x4, a 19-20 crit attack needs a multiplier of x2 and an 18-20 crit attack needs a multiplier of x1.5.

Technically, to keep things balanced you should use the staggered double progression (x1.5, x2, x3, x4, x6, x8, x12) with 18-20 weapons starting at x1.5.

No. Here's the mathematically equal breakdown:

20/x5 = 19/x3 = 18/x2.33 = 17/x2
20/x4 = 19/x2.5 = 18/x2 = 17/x1.75
20/x3 = 19/x2 = 18/x1.67 = 17/x1.5

20/xA = 19/x(A/2+0.5) = 18/x(A/3+0.67) = 17/x(A/4+0.75) = X/(A/(21-X)+(20-X)/(21-X))

This is tempered somewhat by game concerns, but these are largely self-balancing (large crits and large crit ranges are often wasted).

Maybe it should be a +10 bonus.

(Perfect Health)

Maybe. I don't know how much diseases are used in the ultra-high levels, but I'd think not that often. This would be more your realm than mine.

Well it means that not only do you have to hit the tarrgets AC, but that you also only have a 1 in 8 chance that the blow actually connects. For many circumstances this is akin to multiplying hit points by 8...and its not really 'concealment' it should be said (in that Uncanny Accuracy won't trump it), I probably confused things by lumping it in there.

Well, since I don't know what exactly it is then, I'll leave it without further comment.

If it takes one feat for an archer to reduce concealment by 90%, and it takes 5 feats for a character to gain self-concealment 50%, can they both be balanced?

Yes.

Look in your 3.5 Player's Handbook, though: it has Improved Precise Shot.

Further, note that concealment in melee has no good counter.

This one has been annoying me for ages, I'm grasping for an objective answer. Part of me says its too powerful, part of me thinks it isn't. I sort of adde it to get some feedback on it and help thrash it out in my head.

(Vorpal Strike)

I don't know how powerful it is, just that if it's too strong then vorpal needs to become a +6 ability. I don't think it is, so I tend to think the feat's fine. Again, this one comes down to experience more than anything.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

As a mathematician, I have to disagree -- and this seems to dull your point for me. Are you just trying to say that there are different 'degrees' of infinity? That is true, even though there are just as many even numbers as even + odd numbers. (This may seem both unusual and trivial to point out, but it isn't -- the fact that this is possible is what makes the whole numbers infinite in the first place!)

If you just want different 'sizes of infinity', use ω and C (little omega or aleph-null and the continuum).

I never said I agreed with it, in fact disagreeing with it has got me into some big debate battles in the past over on comics forums.