Another Immortals Handbook thread

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Because some abilities scale differently than others. Attacks rolls and saves increase with level and have many potential modifiers, while initiative stays relatively constant. That's why I don't think Supreme Initiative is underpowered despite being "only" as strong as a nonepic feat.

As a rule of thumb, I think the epic feats should be (and largely are!) 2-3 times as strong as the base versions. Automatic Metamagic Capacity is more than 3 times better than whatever feat a third-level wizard takes to buff up his casting.

I was thinking perhaps that all static abilities (those that do not increase generically* with level) would remain constant whereas those that increase with level should have their net effect doubled at epic levels.

*Not abilities unique to a class.

Static scores:

Armour Class (Armor Skin, Dodge, Two-weapon Defense)
Criticals (Improved Critical)
Damage (Weapon Specialisation)
Initiative (Improved Initiative)
Spell Focus

Fluid scores:

Ability Scores...not sure about this one.
Attack Bonus (including Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple, Sunder and Trip)
Saving Throws
Skills
Spell Penetration

What do you think?

I went over the rules very carefully before posting, even though I was pretty sure you could smite more than once per round. You can. Perhaps you're thinking of the monk's Stunning Fist?

Possibly, I'm not sure how I got that confused.

Let's make it a +5 ability that gives +5 to the crtical multiplier, but only when the natural attack roll was 20.

Thats probably the best balanced solution.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Sledge mate!

I think I personally would avoid giving super keen abilities.

Nothing is impossible, its only a matter of how powerful you need to be to gain the ability.

Otherwise we will essentially have a situation where every single hit is a crit.

Which is why the balance between threat range and damage multplier are critical...no pun intended.

The only way this is even viable is if you have a set up where by the crit reducers actual shrink the threat range, but again you get stuck with a case of one upmanship.

I have thought about this, I don't think you need to be able to reduce threat range, but I do think you need to be able to reduce the multiplier.

The way I plan to do this is by breaking down Immunity to Critical Hits into sub-types.

1. Fragile (Crystalline object with bludgeoning weapon, two dimensional object with piercing/slashing weapon)
2. Mechanism (Such as the human body, something with intricate working parts)
3. Solid (Corporeal Undead, Plants, Golems, Animated Object, Earth Elemental)
4. Liquid (Oozes, Water Elemental)
5. Gaseous/Incandescent/Incorporeal etc. (Certain Undead, Air and Fire Elementals)

At the moment I am just try to find the sweet spot for each sub-types critical divider.

I think this idea brings up a lot of possibilities.

Of course things like Fortitude Armour would also be subject to change.

What do the rest of you think?

At the moment I am considering having the Solid Sub-type have a -2 critical divider modifier (this would allow pick-axes and scythes to deal x2 damage on a crit versus a solid object. The Liquid Sub-Type might be -4 and the Gaseous Sub-type might be -6, but I am not sure about those as yet.

BTW for the critical multiplier it should not vary.

Impossible is not in my vocabulary.

This is because the results are the same no matter what the initial multiplier is. +2 to the multiplier, is rolling 2 more times for damage no matter how many times you roll normally.

There are two modifiers.

1. The chance to increase Threat Range.
2. The chance to increase Critical Multiplier.

Threat Range increase is dependant upon the weapons initial threat range, which is either 1/20, 2/20, 3/20.

Critical Multiplier is not necessarily linked to Threat Range, but for the purposes of balance, increasing it must be linked to the Threat Range. As I mentioned before I think the most balanced solution is to invert the modifier.

So that...

Base 18-20 threat range gives +1 damage multiplier
Base 19-20 threat range gives +2
Base 20 threat range give +3

Epic Fighter w. Scimitar

Improved Critical, Keen weapon, Overwhelming Critical, Vorpal Weapon

Threat Range 12-20, Critical Multiplier x3 (x8 on a '20')

Demigod w. Longsword

Improved Critical, Keen Weapon, Overwhelming Critical, Vorpal Weapon, Divine Improved Critical, Divine Keen Weapon, Divine Overwhelming Critical, Divine Vorpal Weapon.

Threat Range 11-20, Critical Multiplier x8 (x18 on a '20')

Intermediate God w. Warhammer (a.k.a. you know who)

Improved Critical, Impact Weapon, Overwhelming Critical, Bonecrushing Weapon, Divine Improved Critical, Divine Impact Weapon, Divine Overwhelming Critical, Divine Bonecrushing Weapon, Cosmic Improved Critical, Cosmic Impact Weapon, Cosmic Overwhelming Critical, Cosmic Bonecrushing Weapon.

Threat Range 14-20, Critical Multiplier x12 (x27 on a '20')

I'm just using the Divine and Cosmic prefixes in this example for convenience.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Sledge!

I'd really like to go ahead with this whole becoming immortal and divine bit. Anything else you can tell me UK?

Let me think about it. I can't tell you the Test of Faith (for immortality), but that is retroactive anyway.*

*

I'll post those portfolio adventure ideas over the next day or so, I am concentrating on solving this critical hits thing at the moment.

 

[Pssthpok]

Of course things like Fortitude Armour would also be subject to change.

What do the rest of you think?

At the moment I am considering having the Solid Sub-type have a -2 critical divider modifier (this would allow pick-axes and scythes to deal x2 damage on a crit versus a solid object. The Liquid Sub-Type might be -4 and the Gaseous Sub-type might be -6, but I am not sure about those as yet.

I think this is a great idea.

Fortitude armor could reduce a critical's multiplier by the one-half the amount of enchantment dedicated to it... so, armor of fortitude [+5] could reduce a scythe's critical hit x2 (x4 - 2 [5/2 rounded down]). Against a zombie wearing that armor, the scythe does nothing on a crit.

Would fragile creatures then suffer a +2 to the critical multiplier when hit by certain weapons?

 

[CRGreathouse]

Okay I'm running your numbers. You're forgetting however that 18-20 isn't the standard, 19-20 is. All of the 18-20 weapons have a slightly lower base damage. Look at your numbers with regards to 19-20 for B.
19-20/x2 with "vorpal B": 1/10 hits will do 3 extra rolls. So 1.3
20/x4 with "vorpal B": 1/20 hits will do 5 extra rolls. So 1.25

Checking C we get:
19-20/x2 with "vorpal C": 1/10 hits will do 2 extra rolls. So 1.2
20/x4 with "vorpal C": 1/20 hits will do 6 extra rolls. So 1.3

And finally A:
19-20/x2 with "vorpal A": 1/20 hits will do 1 extra roll, and 1/20 will do 3 extra rolls. So 1.2
20/x4 with "vorpal A": 1/20 hits will do 5 extra rolls. So 1.25

Don't compare 19-20/x2 weapons with 20/x4 weapons; we're assuming base damage is equal, and with base damage equal x4 is just flat out better. Compare them to 20/x3 weapons:

Case A: +2 to crits with natural 20
19-20/x2 weapon: 1.20X (1 chance of x4 damage, 1 chance of x2 damage)
20/x3 weapon: 1.20X (1 chance of x4 damage)

Case B: +2 to crits
19-20/x2 weapon: 1.30X (2 chances of x4 damage)
20/x3 weapon: 1.20X (1 chance of x4 damage)

Case C: "Double" crit multiplier
19-20/x2 weapon: 1.20X (2 chances of x3 damage)
20/x3 weapon: 1.20X (1 chance of x5 damage)

 

[CRGreathouse]

I have thought about this, I don't think you need to be able to reduce threat range, but I do think you need to be able to reduce the multiplier.

The way I plan to do this is by breaking down Immunity to Critical Hits into sub-types.

1. Fragile (Crystalline object with bludgeoning weapon, two dimensional object with piercing/slashing weapon)
2. Mechanism (Such as the human body, something with intricate working parts)
3. Solid (Corporeal Undead, Plants, Golems, Animated Object, Earth Elemental)
4. Liquid (Oozes, Water Elemental)
5. Gaseous/Incandescent/Incorporeal etc. (Certain Undead, Air and Fire Elementals)

At the moment I am just try to find the sweet spot for each sub-types critical divider.

I think this idea brings up a lot of possibilities.

Of course things like Fortitude Armour would also be subject to change.

What do the rest of you think?

At the moment I am considering having the Solid Sub-type have a -2 critical divider modifier (this would allow pick-axes and scythes to deal x2 damage on a crit versus a solid object. The Liquid Sub-Type might be -4 and the Gaseous Sub-type might be -6, but I am not sure about those as yet.

Again, this isn't balanced across weapons -- unless this is intended, you might want to rethink it. Picks defeat this easily (just one "multiplier"-type ability away even for the powerful ones), while swords will never really get strong enough to break it.

Critical Multiplier is not necessarily linked to Threat Range, but for the purposes of balance, increasing it must be linked to the Threat Range. As I mentioned before I think the most balanced solution is to invert the modifier.

So that...

Base 18-20 threat range gives +1 damage multiplier
Base 19-20 threat range gives +2
Base 20 threat range give +3

In terms of average damage:
18-20/x3 = 19-20/x4 = 20/x7

A longsword gets a better deal out of this transformation than a rapier; both have the same average "critical utility", but the rapier was better before. The longsword had better damage before to counterbalance, and the rapier's gained nothing in this respect.

Still, the ease of this solution may make it the best for you. It's certainly much better than an across-the-board increase.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Pssthpok mate!

I think this is a great idea.

Thanks!

Still needs some fine tuning, but I quite like it myself.

Fortitude armor could reduce a critical's multiplier by the one-half the amount of enchantment dedicated to it... so, armor of fortitude [+5] could reduce a scythe's critical hit x2 (x4 - 2 [5/2 rounded down]). Against a zombie wearing that armor, the scythe does nothing on a crit.

I'm not yet sure if Fortitude Armour should subtract or divide the critical multiplier.

Would fragile creatures then suffer a +2 to the critical multiplier when hit by certain weapons?

Yes.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Again, this isn't balanced across weapons -- unless this is intended, you might want to rethink it.

All weapons are not equal to begin with, so it would be impossible to balance every weapon equally. What I am trying to do is balance both threat range and critical multiplier progression. Thats the important thing as far as I can see.

Picks defeat this easily (just one "multiplier"-type ability away even for the powerful ones), while swords will never really get strong enough to break it.

In terms of average damage:
18-20/x3 = 19-20/x4 = 20/x7

A longsword gets a better deal out of this transformation than a rapier; both have the same average "critical utility", but the rapier was better before. The longsword had better damage before to counterbalance, and the rapier's gained nothing in this respect.

Still, the ease of this solution may make it the best for you. It's certainly much better than an across-the-board increase.

I think it keeps the progressions in check, which is my main concern, not whether an individual weapon is balanced with all other weapons.

I'm just not sure how much each sub-type should reduce the critical multiplier, and whether it should be a set figure or represent a fraction.

 

[Sledge]

okay doing some numbers here for my own thinking as CRGreathouse has raised a few flaws and UK has some proposed solutions.... feel free to make of it what you want.

20/x4 deals 1.15 damage b
19-20/x4 deals 1.3 damage k
20/x7 deals 1.3 damage v
18-20/x4 deals 1.45 damage ki
19-20/x4.5 deals 1.45 damage kv

19-20/x2 deals 1.1 damage b
17-20/x2 deals 1.2 damage k
19-20/x3 deals 1.2 damage v
15-20/x2 deals 1.3 damage ki
17-20/x2.5 deals 1.3 damage kv

18-20/x2 deals 1.15 damage b
15-20/x2 deals 1.3 damage k
18-20/x3 deals 1.3 damage v
12-20/x2 deals 1.45 damage ki
15-20/x2.5 deals 1.45 damage kv

see any patterns beyond 19-20 being less useful?

 

[CRGreathouse]

see any patterns beyond 19-20 being less useful?

19-20/x2 should come out weaker -- you're comparing it to 18-20/x2 and 20/x4.