Another Immortals Handbook thread

[Farealmer3]

I just don't like the black and white nature of it. Its going to really mess with epic mortal vs. immortal battles.

I agree

However what about giving a negative to CL(for spells, items, and the like) equal to half the CL of the feild(rounded up). And if the negative equals the CL of the items or spell it is suppressed otherwise it is halved(like you suggested before). That way nothing gets a free ride through the field.

 

[Eversius]

I agree

However what about giving a negative to CL(for spells, items, and the like) equal to half the CL of the feild(rounded up). And if the negative equals the CL of the items or spell it is suppressed otherwise it is halved(like you suggested before). That way nothing gets a free ride through the field.

That seems like an excellent idea, although, as somebody in this thread (probably UK) has said before, it would require one to keep track of the CL of every magic item in a character's possession. If someone could formulate an idea to make such a thing easier, or even eliminate the need for it, your suggestion would be absolutely perfect.

 

[Cheiromancer]

How about if it negates non-epic magic (CL 20 or below) and halves the bonus provided by everything whose caster level is 21 or higher?

People might not remember the exact CL, but they will probably know if it is epic or not. And the notion that there is a sharp dividing line between the two is not that alien.

I have a question about the Ioun swarm thingie. Is it immune to weapon attacks? I can't see how a hardness 5 and healing 25 hp/hour are going to make it practically impossible to kill.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

How about if it negates non-epic magic (CL 20 or below) and halves the bonus provided by everything whose caster level is 21 or higher?

People might not remember the exact CL, but they will probably know if it is epic or not. And the notion that there is a sharp dividing line between the two is not that alien.

There doesn't seem to be an ideal solution at present, so the best idea is probably just to retain the official rules.

I have a question about the Ioun swarm thingie. Is it immune to weapon attacks?

Yes (as per fine swarm traits).

I can't see how a hardness 5 and healing 25 hp/hour are going to make it practically impossible to kill.

They are tough to hurt with spells as well since they can absorb spells cast at them. They sort of alienate fighters to the same extent that other golems alienate spellcasters.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I was browsing the pdf you sent me a little bit more, and I think you need a proof reader. I'm no John Cooper, but I noticed a couple of cut n paste mistakes and a few awkward sentences. There's probably a need for fresh eyes to look the pdf over.

I'm curious as to why you decided that the eldest elemental should be called Satan as well as Sin. It seems to me that if you are choosing esoteric names, Ahriman would do better as the material principle of evil. Satan would be better suited as the universe's Chief Special Prosecutor, the head of the hierarchy of strict justice, or some such. Though if you wanted to link a principle of evil with the elemental plane, you could do worse than associate Iblis with Efreet and the plane of fire.

I also wonder if there is a different name that you could use for guardian angels than egregori. I recognize the latter term as referring to the embodiment of the collective subconsciousness of a group (sometimes a person); more exactly, a personification of the group's negative drives and desires. I'm thinking of the Anonymous Meditations on the Tarot ("Anonymous" is Valentin Tomberg, an Anthroposophist. Egregores are discussed in the chapter on the Devil). Now that I think of it, Tomberg mentions that some esoteric groups believe (falsely, in his opinion) that the "genius" of an organization could be benevolent, a kind of guardian angel. Is that the reasoning behind the term?

Oh, and about the 4th dimension. You identify the ethereal with the past, the astral with the present, and the plane of shadow with the future. I've always thought of the ethereal as associated with the elemental planes, the astral with the outer planes, and shadow with alternate prime material planes. Is there some time related correspondence that I'm missing? I guess the slow time on the astral is kinda like an eternal present, but other than that I don't see it. I suppose Dream should be in there somewhere, too.

Another question- the whole Kosmic Localization thing. If I understand it correctly, two completely separate primes might have very similar cosmologies- each has a Hell, for example, with Asmodeus in charge, Baalzebul and Mephistopheles jockeying for position, the whole bit. But these would be parallel hells, each on a different (approximately planet sized) patch of the plane. Correct?

The primes might have difference in their cosmologies, of course. Maybe one is ruled by the Norse Pantheon, and the other has the Greek Pantheon. Neither set of gods knows about the other (because of kosmic localization) although both would know about the devils.

Now suppose the two primes come into contact. Some adventurers discover the secrets of shadow walking, or long lost portals from a pre-humanoid history. If I understand Kosmic Localization, the respective pantheons will start to "see" each other. Zeus will become aware of Odin, and vice versa. The two hells will notice each other.

Now I can see how two distinct pantheons might discover each other, but I can't visualize two more or less identical hells coming into contact. Each of the dukes of hell will discover he has a double?

How much "mixing" is required? Does the first traveller from one world to the other make the respective pantheons and hells immediately aware? If this guy dies (or if the long lost portal is lost again- or destroyed!) do the two kosmic localizations separate again? I'm just having some trouble wrapping my mind around it.

Of course, this question is left wholly unresolved in the "standard" cosmology- do all the primes share a common hell? But if you do resolve the problem, I want to see how the solution works.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Cheiromancer matey!

I was browsing the pdf you sent me a little bit more, and I think you need a proof reader. I'm no John Cooper, but I noticed a couple of cut n paste mistakes and a few awkward sentences. There's probably a need for fresh eyes to look the pdf over.

Possibly. Remember of course that the document you have is a few months old and I have fixed the errata that either I or other people have spotted since then.

If you spot anything though, make a note and email me, just in case.

I'm curious as to why you decided that the eldest elemental should be called Satan as well as Sin.

I'll explain that more when the time is right.

It seems to me that if you are choosing esoteric names, Ahriman would do better as the material principle of evil.

Too pantheon bound for my likings. I prefer to have Ahriman/Ormazd as Greater Deities of the Persian Pantheon.

Satan would be better suited as the universe's Chief Special Prosecutor, the head of the hierarchy of strict justice, or some such.

I divorced the idea of Lucifer from Satan (as do most occult books in fairness), he probably fits your description better.

Though if you wanted to link a principle of evil with the elemental plane, you could do worse than associate Iblis with Efreet and the plane of fire.

I think theres a difference between Evil and EVIL.

I also wonder if there is a different name that you could use for guardian angels than egregori.

I was considering this myself (The name might change to Flaga), because I wanted to use that name for an undead creature instead.

I recognize the latter term as referring to the embodiment of the collective subconsciousness of a group (sometimes a person); more exactly, a personification of the group's negative drives and desires. I'm thinking of the Anonymous Meditations on the Tarot ("Anonymous" is Valentin Tomberg, an Anthroposophist. Egregores are discussed in the chapter on the Devil). Now that I think of it, Tomberg mentions that some esoteric groups believe (falsely, in his opinion) that the "genius" of an organization could be benevolent, a kind of guardian angel. Is that the reasoning behind the term?

My occult encyclopedia states that Egregores (sometimes written as Egregori) are celestial beings said to be the shadows of the higher planetary angels.

Oh, and about the 4th dimension. You identify the ethereal with the past, the astral with the present, and the plane of shadow with the future. I've always thought of the ethereal as associated with the elemental planes, the astral with the outer planes, and shadow with alternate prime material planes. Is there some time related correspondence that I'm missing?

Yes. As per Manual of the Planes those three planes are described collectively as the Transitive Planes.

I guess the slow time on the astral is kinda like an eternal present, but other than that I don't see it. I suppose Dream should be in there somewhere, too.

Dream would be linked to Thought which is the Far Realm.

Another question- the whole Kosmic Localization thing. If I understand it correctly, two completely separate primes might have very similar cosmologies- each has a Hell, for example, with Asmodeus in charge, Baalzebul and Mephistopheles jockeying for position, the whole bit. But these would be parallel hells, each on a different (approximately planet sized) patch of the plane. Correct?

At the moment I may slightly change that.

Each kosmically localised layer would technically be infinite, but the size of the populated area would be finite. Roughly equal to a planetary sized area or multi-planetary sized area (if the ruler is known on multiple planets).

eg. For practical purposes, the populated areas of Lolths Layer(s) would cover an area of a dozen or so planets.

However, when two cosmologies discover one another, the two infinities become one.

The primes might have difference in their cosmologies, of course. Maybe one is ruled by the Norse Pantheon, and the other has the Greek Pantheon. Neither set of gods knows about the other (because of kosmic localization) although both would know about the devils.

Exactly. Although you could argue that the Norse and Greek Pantheons know each other from Earth. Also the more powerful the deity, the greater chance they are worshipped on multiple worlds, which means the greater chance they will have encountered other immortals.

Now suppose the two primes come into contact. Some adventurers discover the secrets of shadow walking, or long lost portals from a pre-humanoid history. If I understand Kosmic Localization, the respective pantheons will start to "see" each other. Zeus will become aware of Odin, and vice versa. The two hells will notice each other.

Yes.

Now I can see how two distinct pantheons might discover each other, but I can't visualize two more or less identical hells coming into contact. Each of the dukes of hell will discover he has a double?

Its not necessarily his 'double'. The alternate Hell might have four layers and different rulers (as per the Goetia) for example.

How much "mixing" is required? Does the first traveller from one world to the other make the respective pantheons and hells immediately aware? If this guy dies (or if the long lost portal is lost again- or destroyed!) do the two kosmic localizations separate again? I'm just having some trouble wrapping my mind around it.

Two intelligent beings from different worlds would have to make first contact. As long as the knowledge of the other is in the mind of one person on either planet then the kosmically localised areas can access each other. Although you could say that the greater the interaction between the cultures the closer the kosmically localised areas become, until they eventually merge.

Of course, this question is left wholly unresolved in the "standard" cosmology- do all the primes share a common hell? But if you do resolve the problem, I want to see how the solution works.

Well, the idea is basically about giving the DM freedom to integrate new cosmologies into their campaign without having to rewrite everything.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I think it was the anthroposophists who went around classifying different kinds of evil as "Ahrimanic" (based on matter or a materialist point of view) or "Luciferic" (based on spirit or an idealist point of view). But yeah, you don't want to waste the best example of a dualist religion by assigning the name a different role.

I'm sure you have been asked this already, but have you read Neil Gaiman's books? I'm thinking of the novel American Gods, and the Sandman series of graphic novels. Mike Carey's spinoff of Sandman is also worth checking out (Lucifer). I think there's another spin-off following Death (who likes to appear as a cheerful Goth girl), but I haven't read any of those. In this setting the angels hang out in "the Silver City" instead of a bunch of upper planes. Prominent figures in the cosmology are "the Endless" - Death, Destiny, Dream, Desire, Delirium (formerly Delight), Despair,... and one absent brother who decided he no longer wanted to be the personification of his portfolio.

The kindly ones (the furies) seem to outrank the Endless, or at least Dream (who is junior to Death and Destiny, but senior to the rest). But the furies are also aspects of Eve (who has a cave in Dream's realm). Lilith is an important figure- I think she represents freedom (in the sense of self determination) more than any other figure. She played an important role in the fall of the angels. And of course she is the mother of a whole race of half-fiends.

Anyway, it's a nice mythology. I hope the Immortals Handbook provides tools that will help describe it in game terms.

 

[Kavon]

Yeah, having the Endless and such would be really cool

I'm still collecting the graphic novels (I've got 1 through 3, and the one with Amano), but I have to say I like what I've seen/read :B

I still want to read American Gods as well, though that'll probably wait after I'm done with this year of school.

 

[Pssthpok]

I love Sandman; it's an amazing story. I think the Endless would fall in at around First Ones, but we sorta need Apotheosis to be sure.

 

[Cheiromancer]

It's hard to say. Dream gets trapped in a thaumaturgical diagram after being summoned by a mortal spellcaster. He was gravely weakened after a previous conflict with an (unspecified) being, but still.

Lucifer is a freakin' powerful angel, but there are areas where he has to rely on his wits. The episode (in the Lucifer spinoff) where he has to walk naked (because anything carried or worn falls apart) to the realm of... who is it- the goddess who appears as a stone sculpture. Whose castle is on the back of a big turtle. That was very cool.

We see a lot of Lucifer in Sandman 4, if I recall correctly. Season of Mists. A little bit earlier when Dream recovers his helmet, but that is basically a cameo.