Another Immortals Handbook thread

[Cheiromancer]

I'm probably in the wrong IH thread, but I was thinking about Upper_Krust's CR numbers. What's he's taken to calling ECL to distinguish them from WotC's numbers.

They are really quite brilliant. Even the mistakes are brilliant.

Remember that he recently concluded that he overvalued feats (they should be one sixth of an ECL instead of one fifth) and undervalued PC wealth (which should be one third of an ECL instead of one fifth). Net result is that the average PC level is worth about the same (maybe 1.14 instead of 1.17) but monsters are a little overvalued, since they are built out of feat equivalents and don't have PC wealth.

But notice what happens if you take an ECL 10 monster and make it into a PC character. Multiply by 5/6 to account for the discounted value of feats. That's 8.33 Give it PC treasure for a 10th level character. +3.3 That's 11.63, virtually the same as a 10th level PC. (2% over, but I'm sure there is something I am failing to calculate...)

In other words, the "golden rule" numbers given in v4 or v5 of the IH appendix are perfect for using monsters as PCs. Even though Upper_Krust used a mistaken value for feats to arrive at them. Calling them ECLs is an utterly appropriate fix.

There *is* one issue that I am still wrapping my mind around. That is that a player character with one of the standard classes and standard wealth will be equivalent to a monster almost 40% higher (37% actually) without equipment. If you had to bet on an 11th level charcter vs an ECL 15 monster, the odds should be just about even as to who would prevail. Which means that a character has excellent chances against a monster of equal ECL. Unless the monster has a tactical advantage (say it is a great grappler whose low ECL is based on its vulnerability to ranged attacks, and the PC is a close combat fighter. Or if it has an ability that targets the PCs weak save. Or something).

I think this is a feature, though, not a bug. My CHI/RHO method uses the sum of squares method to determine the power of each side in a combat. I use UK's numbers for the monsters, and character levels for the PCs. In light of this analysis an "equal encounter" where CHI=RHO actually indicates that the odds are tilted fairly heavily in the PCs favor. Which is actually quite appropriate. You want the PCs to win against overwhelming odds more often than not, and the intrinsic pro-PC spin in the CHI/RHO equation makes this happen; even if CHI is twice RHO (ECL 15 monster vs CL 11 PC) the PC has almost even odds.

Anyways, I just wanted to praise UK instead of criticizing him for the IH delays. It may take time for him to get something absolutely right, but it is generally worth the wait.

 

[Kerrick]

A cometary dragon may have time to prepare against an attack before it actually hits - the paradoxial possibilities of whether or not the cometary dragon will actually choose to do so mean that a cometary dragon suffers no effects from any attack or power until immediately after their own action. For example, Kratos unleashes the Blades of Chaos against the Cometary Dragon that has been leashed to Mount Olympus and is currently dragging it to the end of the world to draft it and all of it's inhabitants to fight in Ragnarock. He and the Cometary Dragon roll initiative. The dragon unleashes its breath weapon, engulfing the mighty warrior in memories of forgotten glories and dreams of unfulfilled possibility, but Kratos parries the blast with the timeless essence of the Chaos Blades. He then counter attacks with a truly terrifying attack, grievously wounding the dragon - and yet also not. The blow does not take effect until AFTER the Cometary Dragon's action, which, since this does not kill the dragon, it spends on striking Kratos once before, once during, and once after, shaking the resolve of the godlike champion. Kratos' answer volley, however, splits the dragon in twain! - or does it? The blow does not take effect until AFTER the cometary dragon's action, but since the dragon would be killed (or otherwise prevented from acting) by this attack, the dragon must spend his action on preventing himself from being killed by this effect, or lose the action. The dragon elects to utilize a time skip to jump ahead in time one round, allowing him to evade the entire attack and remain alive.

You've got to be kidding... not only is this thing poorly designed, like Anabster pointed out, it's twice as long as it needs to be. Do we really need to know what the cometary dragon is doing when Kratos attacks it? And "He then counter attacks with a truly terrifying attack". And "paradoxial". Come on, UK... I hope you were planning on running this through an editor again.

I thought over this for a little bit, and I can't figure out any way to explain it. I figured out that cometary dragons exist in a separate time stream, from the looks of it - one round in the future. Of course, this makes it easy to combat them - you just bring it into the area of a pre-existing time lock, e.g., where time-affecting effects don't work (like insight), or have someone under the effects of a temporal ward (immune to time-viewing effects, again, like insight) attack it. But, really, the logistics of such an ability are nearly impossible to wrap the mind around - it would be nearly impossible to kill such a being, since it would see a death blow coming and would act that round to avoid it. You might also trap it with some kind of epic spell that traps beings in a given path of time for x rounds, kind of like time stop. That way, the dragon wouldn't be abe to "time jump" away, because the spell eliminates all other timelines, taking the one the caster chooses and making it the ONLY one.

 

[Anabstercorian]

No, uh... That was what I wrote. I have a habit of writing extended examples of stuff I feel is unclear. I'm sorry it's confusing - I did write it at five in the morning.

Here's IH's, which is simpler, but arguiably worse:

Seventh Sense (Ex): A cometary dragons senses extend one round into the future. To adjudicate this, allow the dragon to replay the round again with the knowledge of whats going to happen next. A cometary dragon can only replay the same round once for every age category, beyond that, the time stream becomes too muddied for it to perceive until time once again is allowed to take its natural course.

 

[Verequus]

Regarding John Cooper: I think, he was made into a editor by couple of publishers, so he could fix errors before the public ever saw them. But beware: JC isn't as perfect as one likes to think. He makes mistakes, too. Just look at the E.N. Critters line reviews (the last three).

 

[Anabstercorian]

There's an inconsistency between the draconic breath-weapon damage die chart on page 59 and the Breath Weapon entry for the Void Dragon - one says d20 damage per hit die, the other says d3 Hit Dice or Levels per hit die of the dragon. Also, the sample very young void dragon fires a line of damage (d20 dice) instead of a cone of level annihilation.

The Quintessence Elemental's Soul Mastery ability is vague. "They lose their divine bonus when fighting against quintessence elementals." It would probably be better to say, "Immortals cannot apply their divine bonus on attacks/actions against quelementals, nor does it apply to their armor class/saving throws against actions by the quelemental." Or something. Define what it means in game terms.

As long as we're on the subject, how difficult is it to get that immortal essence back inside you after it's sundered using Spirit Bomb or Schism? Can an Akalich use Trap the Soul on a quelemental?

Clarify the challenge ratings of the variant diamond golems. It might be more appropriate for the Green diamond golem to do an enormous load of con damage (10d6, or somesuch) instead of instant death, but honestly that might be more accounting than it's worth. OH! I get it now, they're prismatic...! That's classy.

Ioun Golems might be suited to vulnerability to dispel magic. Just a thought. I like the ioun stone stacking rules.

Many of the golems are held together by immense gravitational forces. Should a Reverse Gravity spell perhaps negate their regeneration, or something similar?

Regarding the Gibborim: The Breath Weapon and Dimensional Folding entries can probably be folded in to one. Distasteful should probably allow a save of some sort.

Regarding the Odium, or shall I call it the Malboro: What precisely can a puppet do each round - i.e., what is the Odium giving up in exchange for one of it's tentacles?

Regarding the Sadim: It would probably be seemly to describe the mechanisms through which Gold Rot functions, or at least what to tell the player beyond, "Your money be gone." Also, I propose that it be possible to breach it's regeneration with an epic weapon given to the wielder as a gift.

Regarding the Akalich: What's the saving throw DC for Aura of Dread? In Trap The Soul, by 'levels are drains', do you mean something besides 'negative levels inflicted'? Are you sure it's wise to inflict that sort of penalty?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

Thanks for the replies everyone, and I think I know how to fix the Cometary Dragon. ;-)

 

[CRGreathouse]

Regarding John Cooper: I think, he was made into a editor by couple of publishers, so he could fix errors before the public ever saw them. But beware: JC isn't as perfect as one likes to think. He makes mistakes, too. Just look at the E.N. Critters line reviews (the last three).

I remember he did some editing for Silverthorne as well.

 

[Alzrius]

Just wanted to post this here after it came up in another thread. There's apparently a fan page about the Toho Godzilla films, that includes a few pages with some excellent d20 materials. Check out the deities in particular. I think their Godzilla would whip U_K's.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Alzrius, and thanks for the info CRGreathouse!

Just wanted to post this here after it came up in another thread. There's apparently a fan page about the Toho Godzilla films, that includes a few pages with some excellent d20 materials.

Thanks for the link, very interesting idea, turning the toho terrors into deities.

Check out the deities in particular. I think their Godzilla would whip U_K's.

If I had a nickel for everytime I had heard that...

I don't agree with their stats (much too weak), but at least I got to learn a few of the actual names for the special abilities (at least I assume those are the given names) which of course I could update if my site was online*.

*I have spoken to the webspace providers and they assure me they are doing everything to correct the problem (a hardware problem according to them).

By the way, with regards the pdf. does it make sense to have a blank page as the second page, so that people who print it out will have the appropriate facing pages?

ie.

Page One = Cover
Page Two = Blank Page (representing the inside front cover)
Page Three = Credits/Contents (numbered page 1)
Page Four = Monsters by CR/Type Tables (numbered page 2)
Page Five = Feats (numbered page 3)
etc.

This way most of the monsters will be on facing pages if people print the whole thing out.

 

[Anabstercorian]

By the way, with regards the pdf. does it make sense to have a blank page as the second page, so that people who print it out will have the appropriate facing pages?

Hell, why not? It's a PDF. If you add a blank page, it costs nothin'. If they don't want to print it, they don't have to - it's not hard to do.