Another Paladin Thread: Throw Rocks!

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Deuce Traveler said:
"Gentlemen, you have three choices. First, you may surrender yourselves to me and I will place you under arrest in our fortress (converted Moat House). There you will receive food and a cell to rest in, but will have no trial until we have cleansed this land of evil. This may be a long time, but afterwards you will be tried by the good people of Hommlet. Your second option is to agree to repent your evil ways and convert to Pelor. You will still be kept in a cell, but we will see to your religious education and free you when we are confident that you have seen Pelor's light (by using Detect Evil). Finally, I can judge you here and now. I warn you that my judgement is harsh, and it will most likely end with your execution. You will have your say, and if I deem you guilty, I will allow you an hour to pray to your god before giving you the axe."
Sounds like a good solution, and unless such behavior would explictly go against the paladin's order or the law of the land, a very paladin-like thing to do.

How do you deal with prisoners/converts when there is no quick way to get them to a cell? E.g. you're off on a mission in enemy terrain, or stuck in a dungeon with no exit in sight? Not every paladin can count on having a readily available detention facility, and dragging prisoners along for days may very well jeopardize your mission (possibly causing the deaths of many more innocent lives than the number of prisoners you're dragging around)...
 

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Roll Call: Ethos

Abraxas said:
Or, the orc was scared out of its wits by the group that "slaughtered" its comrrades and was hoping, and had decided on its own, that by giving up information it would be allowed to live.
That's my current theory too. However, only the DM knows for sure (i.e., we don't have access to speak with dead).

By the way, what are the other PC's alignments?
  • Wyndess Faithbringer: Aasimar Cleric 3 / Paladin 2 --- (LG)
  • Mival "Ogrebane": Half-Orc Barbarian 3 / Ranger 3 --- (CG)
  • Wade Tysel: Elan Psychic Warrior 2 / Psion 4 --- (CG)
  • Bogg Vargus: Halfling Rogue 6 --- (CG)
  • Nigel Yarrow: Human Wizard 5 / Wild Mage 1 --- (CN)
-Samir
 


pawsplay said:
That sounds more LN and hardassed to me than LG and honorable.
Funny you should say that. At the moment I am running a LN cleric of St Cuthbert. When our party captures an enemy, they always seem to turn to me for mercy - they seem to assume I am LG. This often results in my yelling "Retribution!" and slamming a gauntlet into their face. :D
The Thayan Menace said:
  • Wyndess Faithbringer: Aasimar Cleric 3 / Paladin 2 --- (LG)
  • Mival "Ogrebane": Half-Orc Barbarian 3 / Ranger 3 --- (CG)
  • Wade Tysel: Elan Psychic Warrior 2 / Psion 4 --- (CG)
  • Bogg Vargus: Halfling Rogue 6 --- (CG)
  • Nigel Yarrow: Human Wizard 5 / Wild Mage 1 --- (CN)
Ever noticed that, no matter what the prevailing alignment of the party is, theres one guy who always has to be CN? :p
 
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You know, far as I can see it the situation seems to boil down to one question:

Does a badguy become innocent by virtue of their having lost?
 

I have been reading this thread avidly but not commenting, until now. Mr. Burlew's article is inciteful and generally correct, and I think it lends itself well to the problem at hand (as apparently did Janx). I personally, don't see anything wrong with what the paladin did as I read it. No decision had been reached by the group concerning the fate of the orc, so the paladin did not violate his word or the word of a party member. In barbaric ogre/orc controlled lands, there is no "legitimate authority" of a humanoid sort (no king/lord/magistrate) to take the problem to, and Tyr certainly outranks them anyway, so his paladin does as well by extension. So, no disrepect shown for legitimate authority. You "could" make the arguement that running down a defenseless, unarmed orc on horse-back and slaughtering him was less than honorable, but I don't know that it qualifies as dishonorable.

However, you do clearly have a problem. This sort of head-butting, if it is causing problems OOCly as it clearly is, is bad for your game and the enjoyment of all your players. I think one of the fundamental problems you may be encountering is that the paladin is your only non-chaotic character. The paladin is a delicate class that needs the right surroundings to flourish. It needs a DM who communicates to the player directly and upfront his own views of the paladin class and is willing to work to incorporate the player's view and be consistent with what they agree on. It needs a competent player who can handle the sometimes onerous burden of the paladin's alignment and code-of-conduct without putting undue strain on the other players, and it also needs other party-members that can handle and adapt to the paladin's often unique outlook. Lacking the proper DM, the paladin is just a frustrating trap for some poor player who will constantly be harrassed for his IC behavior every time it doesn't conform to whatever unspecified opinion the DM has about the class. Lacking the proper player, you get a paladin that disrupts the game with his holy-boy antics and creates resentment amongst the rest of the group. Lacking the right party mix, you get a paladin who is just waiting to get backed into a moral quandry with no escape. I think what you have is the wrong party mix. That's not intended to be a slight on you, the player of the paladin, or any of your other players. It's just that the character concepts you've all come up with don't mesh in a way that's conducive to the paladin, and quite honestly your character leaving the group will do little to salvage it. Next time, it will just be the CG barbarian or rogue.

My suggestion is to talk to the paladin's player privately and express your concern and ask if he/she would be comfortable discussing it with the rest of the group. You do all need to hash this out, but you don't want to risk your friendship by making the player feel like you ambushed him or tried to turn the whole group against him. Perhaps just playing a paladin of a different diety would improve things dramatically. All paladins have a proverbial stick up their backsides, but paladins of Tyr tend to opt for the triple-extra-large redwood tree. A paladin of Ilmater might suit better, and a halfling paladin of Yondalla would probably have spared the orc after the confession about his children if he extracted a vow by the orc to forswear evil and teach his children not to act that way either. Or perhaps just a cleric of a diety more likely to get along with a bunch of chaotic adventurers. Ultimately, though, I think the paladin acted correctly and that continued correct action will just lead to further group strife in and out of character. It may just be time to rethink the character.
 

Play-By-Play

tonym said:
Aha. Sounds like your PC was being a jerk to the paladin. Now it all makes sense.
I did insult her, but only after I perceived her as being psychotic. If I had it to do over again, I probably would have kept a cooler head ... however, I don't think I would have stood by and let an unarmed prisoner get punked during parley.

tonym said:
You knew darn well that the paladin wanted that orc dead, but you went ahead and put that paladin in a sticky situation.
Yes I did ... after the interrogation, when she suddenly demanded his blood. However, I did not intend to compromise her code.

tonym said:
When a paladin enters a party of adventurers, the party TACITLY AGREES that the paladin does not get put into sticky situation by jerky PCs. And if a jerky PC thoughtlessly puts the paladin in such a situation, the paladin should not be criticized for getting herself out of the situation.
I provisionally agree. Party camaraderie is important; that's why I started this thread ... to work stuff out and maintain it.

tonym said:
You knew you were angering the paladin and knew the paladin wanted the orc dead, but you went ahead and concocted a difficult situation. You should have done a much better job of getting information from the orc.
I was honestly not thinking about the paladin at that point; I was thinking about her sword piercing the internal organs of a defenseless mook who fully cooperated with us.

By the way ... if you can devise a form of interrogation that beats a full (unforced) confession, then please let me know.

tonym said:
If I was running the paladin, I would've had her say to your PC, "Those who aid evil, may find themselves killed by the same blessed sword of justice," or some other threat to make it clear that the paladin HAS to follow her code, and to interfere with it is to imperil yourself.
She said something like that. I told her that she was welcome to strike me down, if she had the stones. I'll admit, I was confrontational ... but it all happened very quickly, and her actions seemed really twisted to me at the time.

-Samir
 

LotR Props!

sckeener said:
“Pity? [Gandalf replies] It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo. Be sure that [Bilbo] took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in the end, because he began his ownership of the Ring so. With Pity.”
This is exactly what ran through my mind, when I had Nigel defend the orc prisoner.

-Samir
 


True Dat! (X100)

Thurbane said:
Ever noticed that, no matter what the prevailing alignment of the party is, theres one guy who always has to be CN? :p
ROFL! :D

For the record, I have played LG, NG, CG, LN, CN, NE, and CE.

-Samir
 

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