(Another) Samurai Core Class

[silentspace]

so a daisho style samurai is required to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (katana) as his first-level feat, as written, right?

edit: i mean, if he wants to use his second level combat style ability, that is.

 

[trav_laney]

so a daisho style samurai is required to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (katana) as his first-level feat, as written, right?

edit: i mean, if he wants to use his second level combat style ability, that is.

Actually, they start the game proficient with the bastard sword (or katana, if you prefer). It is listed as one of their proficient weapons.

 

[Kularian]

EDIT: Already clarified about the Katana Weapon Prof.


Okay, now for my two cents.

The class seems pretty close to perfect to me. Well, except for the willsave/ironwill, but that would be taken care of via the switch from Iron Will at 3 to Quick Draw. True it is a historical samurai, and though it deviates somewhat, it is impossible to adhere exactly to samurai life. The thing that I don't think people are treating as an important factor, is that the class will be played for flavor more than indestructability in combat.

That being said, I do think the DR is a little much, IMO. Barbarians, who are the epitome of survivors, get a 5/- DR rating by level 20. So I'd drop it to maybe 1/- at level 7, and increase by 1 every six levels or so? That is a little harsher, but I don't believe that a Samurai's skill lies in ignoring damage taken, as that takes a little light away from the Barb. If you want them(samurai) to stand on their own, they need their own space.

Okay, so if we do that to DR, that unfortunately makes levels 16-19 'dead levels.' So maybe at 17 or even 18 throw in Perfect Combat Mastery? That ruffles the feathers a little, since most of the combat masteries don't have 4 to work with, so maybe you could do it like so:

Daisho:
Two-Weapon Fighting
Two-Weapon Defense
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting

Kyuba:
Mounted Archery
Ride-By Attack
Improved Mounted Archery*
Spirited Charge

Sodo:
Cleave, Combat Reflexes, or Mobility (Couldn't really decide, ><)
Improved Trip
Spring Attack
Whirlwind Attack

* Improved Mounted Archery would be a customized feat that just further reduced the ranged penalties by an additional 2 for using a ranged weapon while mounted. Other options, if you didn't want to create a feat, could be: any of the ranged feats (point blank, rapid shot, etc), or Trample, perhaps? I just didn't think there were enough ranged feats in the Kyuba tree, so that's just my opinion, there.


Again, these are just my thoughts, so feel free to ignore them or take them to heart. But I like the class, and am actually considering playing it now, hehe.

 

[exempt]

Just to let you know, trav_laney -- not that you probably didn't notice already -- but on the boards here and at Wizards there is a great number of people who have strong but conflicting opinions of teh samurai. So I applaud you for forging into this arena.

There is tons of info in there about which weapons were used during certain time periods and dynasties...everything from clubs to grenades.

I for one, would like to see the grenade style (ka-BOOM no machi)

Originally Posted by exempt
I do have some questions... I would have to do the math, but is focused strike worth it once BAb is high enough to get multiple attacks? My guess is that it really depends on the target's AC... if high, the use Focused Strike, if not then use full attack to attack multiple times.

YOu are right, it is less effective at higher levels, depending on the target's armor class and hit dice (more hit dice = higher Concentration check). Do you think I should amp it up? And if so, how?

I just looked up the Diamon Mind path in Tome of Battle. If you don't have it, Diamond Mind is a combat method that emphasizes "insightful" strikes driven by concentration, which is what you seem to me seeking here.

Some ideas from that:

Make Conc check with DC = foe's AC. On success, add 1d6 damage (this is a 1-st level strike, so maybe scale the d6 with level, like the rogue's sneak attack... but put some limits on how often it can be used each day or encounter.

Make attack, and if successful, make Conc check. This is the damage you deal, but don't add Str, magic, etc. Damage is just the Conc roll. You use a standard action for this attack. The higher -level ability multiplies the Conc check roll by two. Again, I'd limit the number of times you can use it each day or encounter.

Or... just keep the ability as-is, but as the samurai progresses, add special effects (DC = 10+ 1/2 samurai level + 1/2 Con bonus). I mean effects like daze, stun (1 round), stun (1d4 rounds), knock off balance (no Dex bonus to AC for a round), etc.

Or... just stick with it and assume that once characters get multiple attacks in a round, they'll use focused strike less often except for teh few occasions they meet enemies with very high AC. Then the extra attack bonus will reallly help.

In any case, I like teh focused strike idea.

I'd find a samurai you like and stick with it. And unless your campaign is historical Japan, just make the samurai in the image you want him. OA is one of the few venues in D&D where people really focus on the historicity of the goods.

 

[silentspace]

Actually, they start the game proficient with the bastard sword (or katana, if you prefer). It is listed as one of their proficient weapons.

Right. Might want to clarify that as "Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)" (or Katana), as they do in the CW class.

As others mentioned, samurai were not known for two-weapon fighting. Musashi writes of the difficulty of this fighting style, noting the strength required. This strength requirement is mimiced in the rules by the inability to use a bastard sword one-handed without EWP.

The base historical samurai focused primarily on kenjutsu, so I believe that should be one of the main fighting styles. May I suggest something like Power Attack - Cleave - Uncanny Blow (2x Str damage).

Personally, I wouldn't make quick-draw a base class feature. Let it be an option. Perhaps even its own fighting style.

 

[trav_laney]

...so if we do that to DR, that unfortunately makes levels 16-19 'dead levels.' So maybe at 17 or even 18 throw in Perfect Combat Mastery? That ruffles the feathers a little, since most of the combat masteries don't have 4 to work with, so maybe you could do it like so:

Holy crap, that is an awesome idea! I thought the damage reduction was a bit too high, and this is the perfect way to fix it. I think I will give special combat abilities at 17th level instead of high-end feats, however...special attacks and methods that cannot be learned by other classes. Thanks for the input!

Again, these are just my thoughts, so feel free to ignore them or take them to heart. But I like the class, and am actually considering playing it now, hehe.

Wait until Monday before you roll him (or her) up. I'm incorporating everyone's suggestions into it, and will post the "final draft" version after the weekend.

 

[trav_laney]

I just looked up the Diamon Mind path in Tome of Battle. If you don't have it, Diamond Mind is a combat method that emphasizes "insightful" strikes driven by concentration, which is what you seem to me seeking here.

Or... just stick with it and assume that once characters get multiple attacks in a round, they'll use focused strike less often except for teh few occasions they meet enemies with very high AC. Then the extra attack bonus will reallly help.

I think I am going to stick with it, but change the Concentration DC to equal the creatures armor class instead of 15 + HD. Speaking as a DM, less math is always better.

 

[trav_laney]

As others mentioned, samurai were not known for two-weapon fighting. Musashi writes of the difficulty of this fighting style, noting the strength required. This strength requirement is mimiced in the rules by the inability to use a bastard sword one-handed without EWP.

You are, like, the fifth person to suggest this change. And most frustrating of all, you guys are absolutely right. I can't find anything (outside of pop culuture sources, anyway) that says that Samurai wielded both weapons in battle simultaneously. There was the fighting style known as nitojutsu, but it focused on using a paired set of odachi swords and wasn't historically practiced among the samurai. So I guess I'll have to rework it.

Howsabout this: I get rid of daisho, and I call the combat style kenjutsu (lit. "sword methods") instead. At 2nd level, the samurai may use Cleave regardless of whether or not he meets the requirements. At 6th level, he may use Great Cleave. At 11th level, he may use Improved Critical. And at 17th level (going with Kularian's suggestion), the samurai may use Mighty Cleave.* Giving Power Attack at 2nd level is too weak compared to the other combat styles.

*Mighty Cleave: The samurai may take a single 5-foot step while using his Great Cleave ability. This counts as his five-foot step for the round. (This is possibly unbalancing...will have to play-test this one.)

Personally, I wouldn't make quick-draw a base class feature. Let it be an option. Perhaps even its own fighting style.

I've decided to give a bonus feat at 3rd level. Personally, I prefer Improved Initiative over Quick Draw since I don't change weapons very often. But samurai did study iaijutsu, as Sadrik already mentioned...so in the interest of keeping this class historically accurate, I'm going with Quick Draw.

 

[XCorvis]

I wouldn't worry about Mighty Cleave. There was some concern over it from Sword and Fist (when it was called Supreme Cleave), but it turns out that was mostly misinterpretation. With great cleave and a non-reach weapon, you can potentially kill 8 medium enemies, if you're surrounded. With Mighty/Supreme Cleave, you can make a 5' step and get only 3 more. That's best-case. But it does let you cleave into someone you could not have reached before. Plus, if you make it a feat it still takes 3 regular feats to get to it, and you'd be giving it at 17th level even as a virtual feat, so IMO no biggie.

 

[Sadrik]

I have an idea for your focused strike ability. Change the name to Iaijutsu. Make it an opposed concentration check. Then, have the winner add an initiative bonus, to hit bonus and damage bonus to their role. This ability only functions in a "duel" or in a pre-initiative situation. So basically their first strike is always going to be really good. In a duel with another samurai it will be decent.

It also might make sense to not have them be raw numbers. For instance:
if you win the concetration check by...
1-5 you get +2
6-10 you get +4
11-15 you get +6
16+ you get +8

So, I would give them:
1 Iaijutsu, Quickdraw
2 Bonus Samurai Feat
3 -
4 Staredown
5 -
6 Bonus Samurai Feat
7 -
8 Iron Will
9 Staredown (30')
10 -
11 Bonus Samurai Feat
12 Lightning Reflexes
13 -
14 Staredown (move action)
15 -
16 Bonus Samurai Feat
17
18 Staredown (free action)
19 -
20 Bonus Samurai Feat

Bonus Samurai Feats
Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Mighty Cleave, Two-Weapon Fighting, Dual Strike, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Mounted Archery, Ride-By Attack, Improved Mounted Archery*, Spirited Charge, Improved Critical: Katana, Exotic weapon Proficiency: Katana,

+ More Feats