Another Spell Token System

[Sadrik]

First, I want to thank SteveC for a lot af really good ideas on his system. As well as the Iron Heroes game for the great idea of using tokens to power abilities.

Anyway, I'll let the system speak for itself.

Spell Token System

All casters get a number of token to spend on their spells depending on their level and class. This is their spell pool. The following chart shows how many tokens they get in their spell pool. At 1st level they also get a number of bonus spell pool tokens equal to their key casting stat modifier (4th for rangers and paladins).

Tokens by Level and Class
Level	Soc	Wiz	Clr*	Drd	Brd	Rgr	Pal
1	2	1	1/1	1	0	-	-
2	3	2	2/1	2	1	-	-
3	4	3	2/2	3	2	-	-
4	5	4	3/2	4	3	0	0
5	7	5	3/3	5	3	0	0
6	8	6	4/3	6	4	1	1
7	9	7	4/4	7	5	1	1
8	10	8	5/4	8	6	2	2
9	12	9	5/5	9	6	2	2
10	13	10	6/5	10	7	3	3
11	14	11	6/6	11	8	3	3
12	16	12	7/6	12	9	4	4
13	17	13	7/7	13	9	4	4
14	18	14	8/7	14	10	5	5
15	19	15	8/8	15	11	5	5
16	20	16	9/8	16	12	6	6
17	22	17	9/9	17	12	6	6
18	23	18	10/9	18	13	7	7
19	24	19	10/10	19	14	7	7
20	25	20	11/10	20	15	8	8
*Class spells/Domain Spells

Maximum Number of Tokens Spent at Once by Level and Class
Level	Soc	Wiz	Clr	Drd	Brd	Rgr	Pal
1	1	1	1	1	1	-	-
2	1	1	1	1	1	-	-
3	1	2	2	2	1	-	-
4	2	2	2	2	2	1	1
5	2	3	3	3	2	1	1
6	3	3	3	3	2	1	1
7	3	4	4	4	3	1	1
8	4	4	4	4	3	2	2
9	4	5	5	5	3	2	2
10	5	5	5	5	4	2	2
11	5	6	6	6	4	2	2
12	6	6	6	6	4	3	3
13	6	7	7	7	5	3	3
14	7	7	7	7	5	3	3
15	7	8	8	8	5	3	3
16	8	8	8	8	6	4	4
17	8	9	9	9	6	4	4
18	9	9	9	9	6	4	4
19	9	10	10	10	7	4	4
20	10	10	10	10	7	4	4

Specialist Wizard Bonus Tokens
Level	Tokens
1-4	1
5-8	2
9-12	3
13-16	4
17-20	5

Spell Pool
Casters all have a spell pool with their available unspent tokens in it. When a caster casts a spell they draw the required tokens into their pool and then cast it as normal. It is a good idea for the player to use actual tokens when using this system because the tokens can be in three different pools: unspent, spent and used.
Unspent Tokens
Unspent tokens are the tokens that the caster has available to cast his or her spells.
Spent Tokens
Spent tokens are tokens that are spent and can come back through regeneration.
Used Tokens
Used tokens are tokens that are currently powering spells with durations and cannot be regenerated until the spell duration ends. After a spell ends move them to the spent pile.

Token Effect Chart
Tokens	Caster	DC	Minimum
Spent	Level*	Bonus	Cost for a
0	1	0	0 level spell
1	2	1	1st level spell
2	4	2	2nd level spell
3	5	3	3rd level spell
4	8	4	4th level spell
5	10	5	5th level spell
6	12	6	6th level spell
7	14	7	7th level spell
8	16	8	8th level spell
9	18	9	9th level spell
10	20	10	-

*Capped at the caster’s actual level

Token Regeneration
Casters regenerate tokens by using the following actions. Casters are always considered to be taking the free action unless somehow prevented; like being unconscious. Divine casters pray and plea with their deity to get their power back, arcane casters draw back their magical energies from around them and innate casters focus and rebuild their mental wills.

Action Type		Tokens Gained
1 full round action	2 token
1 standard action		1 token
10 free actions		1 token

Negative Spell Tokens
Negative Casting
If a caster ever spends their spell tokens into the negatives they get one negative spell token for every point they cast into the negative.
Overcasting
A caster can take a negative spell token to increase the caster level his spell by 2 and its DC by 1.
Negative Spell Token Effects
Every negative spell token that a caster has lowers their spell pool size by 2 and the number of tokens they can spend on a spell is lowered by 1. If a caster ever lowers his pool size to zero or below he or she dies.
Recovering Negative Spell Tokens
It takes 8 hours of rest to get rid of 1 negative spell token. If the character ever has no spell tokens while they have a negative token they die. Restoration spell removes 1 negative spell token.

Permanent Spells
Whenever a caster casts a spell with a permanent duration it takes something out of them to do it. To show this the caster gets a negative spell token depending on the spell level of the spell.

Spell	Negative Spell
Level	Tokens Gained
0	0
1-3	1
4-6	2
7-9	3

Healing Spells
Healing spells (those that have the Conjuration (healing) descriptor) all become duration permanent instead of duration instantaneous. This makes healing out of combat very easy (cure minor wounds), but makes casting other cures more difficult and costly.

Metamagic Feats
To use a metamagic feat when casting a spell it costs +1 spell token for each additional level it requires to cast it. Note that the caster is still limited by the maximum number of tokens they can spend per spell.

Using Psionics
Adding psionics to this system is very easy. Use the following charts for the following classes: a psion would be a wizard, a psychic warrior would be a mage, and a wilder would be a sorcerer.

Optional Rule
A caster becomes fatigued when they get a negative spell token (-2 to strength and dexterity, 8 hours of rest to recover). If a caster ever has more negative spell tokens than spell tokens they become exhausted (-6 to strength and dexterity, 1 hour of rest to become fatigued). A character that does anything to make them fatigued while already fatigued also becomes exhausted.

 

[Sadrik]

Bump...

Anyone have an opinion?

Ash

 

[Cheiromancer]

I don't like the negative spell token rules. I preferred the system where tokens can get into a state that requires 8 hours of rest before they recover.

 

[Sadrik]

So, after eight hours of rest you recover *all* negative spell token?

That could be workable.

What about, make it some sliding scale based on the level of the caster? Like 1/3 or 1/4 of the level of the caster is recovered after 8 hours of rest. That way there is a penalty for taking on a lot of negative spell tokens.

For instance: a 12th level caster recovers 3 or 4 negative spell tokens after eight hours of rest. As opposed to *all* of them.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Bear in mind that I don't have Iron Heroes, so I don't really know what elements you have borrowed from there. I recall from the discussion with SteveC that there is potentially a problem with permanent and instantaneous spells, one that can be addressed with having tokens that do not regenerate until a night's rest has passed. In other words, there are four types of tokens

free: usable to cast spells.
used: maintaining a spell with a duration
spent: can be regenerated fairly quickly
dissipated: come back after a night's rest

(different letters so you can use a 1 letter abbreviation. A character's tokens can be described as 3f,2u,1s,4d for instance.)

That's the system I recall from SteveC's proposal- perhaps I am misremembering.

It's just I don't see what the virtues of the negative tokens are. Do they play a key roll in IH? Why not have "dissipated" instead? This would make it work more like standard D&D, where a cleric can't kill himself by casting few cure disease spells.

 

[Sadrik]

IH brought the over arching idea of using tokens to power abilities/spells. Thats it (at least for me). However on the message boards for the game they have been trying to develope a new casting system for the arcanist class which is the casting class from IH. I put in a couple of ideas on that system and a couple of ideas on SteveC's system which popped up around the same time. My version differs from steveC's on the following things:

Negative spell tokens (like you already pointed out).
Regenerating spell tokens (You get 1 spell token back per minute, or faster if you take actions to recharge.)
The absence of an overarching new class that this all fits into. (My version is a template that you drop over everything.)

Negative spell tokens:
What is their purpose?
They create a system of lowering the overall caster level and power of the caster.
For each negative spell token they have-
They lower the maximum number of tokens you can spend on a single spell by 1.
They lower the maximum size of your token pool by 2.

Why?
There are three ways you gain negative spell tokens: Overcasting, Negative Casting and Permanent Spell Casting.

Overcasting- allows you to increase the maximum number of tokens you can spend on one spell. For instace if you were a 4th level wizard you could increase your caster level to 6 and the spells DC by 1. To do this you take on 1 negative spell token.

Negative Casting- allows the caster to cast into negative spell points at the cost of diminishing there over-all effectiveness for the rest of the day and beyond. For every spell point they draw from an empty spell pool they take 1 negative spell token.

Permanent Spell Casting- When a character casts a duration permanent spell they take on negative spell token depending on the level of the spell. Why- I think this was discussed in SteveC's thread pretty well but... Basically, you dont want a character running around casting a whole bunch of permanent spells without any drawback; since they essentially could do it all day.

So why use this mechanic?
I think that negative spell tokens are a hefty hit to a caster, moreso than being just "dissipated". So, it makes using an of these effects (that gain negative spell tokens) more of a last resort. That is what I wanted. They are like negative levels for casters and as such players dont want them.

As far killing themself after a few cure disease spells:
They have to lower their maximum pool size to zero. That is pretty hard unless they cast it a lot. I think that the characters wouldnt kill themself.

Spell token regeneration?
I believe if memory serves SteveC had all the spell tokens reappear after 5 minutes. He also had some action that got you spell tokens back during a battle. In this system they regenerate at a 1 per minute rate naturally and the caster can accellerate getting them back by taking actions (this is very similar to IH).

The overarching caster class thing?
I would rather just template the whole system to all casters.

 

[Imret]

Well, at first glance, I like it. In homebrewing a world I've come to realize I more or less need to re-invent the wheel to fit my vision, among them using the generic classes from Unearthed Arcana and completely altering the spell lists. The idea of spell tokens appeals to me, since I think they best represent magic as a living energy - you can channel it into instant power, weave it into a lasting effect, or render it into a permanent shape.

I might give spellcasters more tokens and have them regenerate their tokens more slowly, since I'd greatly expand the ways in which they're used and don't want players to run short. Negative spell tokens I'm torn on, though I like the feeling of them. If I changed "dissipate" status to lasting a lunar month, it meshes nicely with my cosmology and provides a penalty without being severe. The token spent to overcast the spell is dissipated, as are two from the cost of a permanent spell.

As for negative casting, I might reduce it to being the "last ditch" effort; I just whipped up a mechanic I might use but it's huge, so I'll spoiler it. In summary it provides a chance of physical damage, immediate exhaustion, and fatigue that lingers as long as the character continues to exert himself in a day.
[SBLOCK]
Disclaimer: This optional mechanic is very heavily geared to my homebrew's magical "architecture", heavily colored by Exalted as it is. YMMV.

· At the caster's option, he may choose to cast a spell with a cost over and above his remaining free spell tokens. He may overcast this spell up to 3 times, regardless of his current number of free spell tokens. As soon as the spell is cast, he must make an immediate Fortitude save (DC 15 + level of the spell cast) or take 1d4 damage per spell token of "debt" as the excess energy wracks his mortal shell. This damage is doubled if the spell is overchanneled once and quadrupled if the spell is overchanneled twice.

Regardless of the result of this save, the caster is immediately exhausted. After an hour of rest he becomes fatigued, and requires a full day of rest or two days of light activity to recover. Each day the caster engages in heavy activity, such as combat or running or casting spells above 0 level, he remains fatigued. So long as he is fatigued because of this overchanneling, his available token pool is reduced by two.

A spell overchanneled three times inflicts the following on its caster:
- The caster takes 2d6 damage per token the spell would have cost. There is no save.
- The caster must make an immediate Will save (DC 15 + caster level) or suffer 3d6 points of permanent drain to their spellcasting attribute; the Powers take poorly to arrogant mortals overreaching themselves by so much and will rip the sorcery from their minds.
- He is immediately rendered unconscious and remains so for twenty-four hours.
- For the next full year, his available token pool is reduced by five.
- Should the caster survive this effort of channeling and remain a sentient being, he will radiate light twice as bright as a torch for one day per caster level, in a color "spiritually" fitting to the caster's nature. In addition, any use of detect magic within a mile of the lucky survivor will convey a sense of "burnt magic" and a rough direction. The caster has grabbed the energies of the Periphery with both hands in up to the elbow, and some of it still ripples through his blood and bones.
[/SBLOCK]

In short I'm very fond of this spell token system, and the fact it's easily applied to all casters makes it suits my needs perfectly. I'd certainly use it as a base from which to build a slightly more customized system, if I decide to go with tokens rather than a more abstract "points". It would go well with my love of shiny objects...so many glass beads...

 

[Sadrik]

Thanks Imret,

I like what you have weaved for your campaign world it sounds intersting. Boy, losing 5 from your maximum spell pool size for a whole lunar cycle is pretty... rough.

Another thing with the negative spell tokens:
Most of the other systems have some sort of damage effect if you go to negative spell points. The negative spell token's take care of that by basically limiting their spellcasting rather than giving damage. I personally dont think a wizard should be damaged physically by spell casting like that, but I think that they should be diminished in their overall capacity and power for the day/next few days.

Imret, the feedback effect for overchanneling on your rules addition makes sense for how you described magic though- living energy. So, as they draw more energy than they can normally handle in the energy zaps them.

 

[Sadrik]

Here is a problem with the system that need to be addressed:

What spells do the classes have available to cast.
Sorcerers are limited by their spells known.
Wizards are limited by what is in their spell book.
Clerics are limited by their spell list.
Druids are limited by their spell list.
Bards are limited by their spells known.
Paladins are limited by their spell list.
Rangers are limited by their spell list.

Sorcerer and Bard are fine.
And if the Psionic classes are used, their powers known chart is fine.
All of the others need some work.

They could all have a spells readied chart.

Using the spells per day chart as a spells readied chart. Spells readied is similar to spells known except that the other characters can ready a new spell in the slots every day. Also, the casting stat's bonus spells should be applied to the spells readied per day.

Some special cases:
The cleric would have their spells per day chart and also automatically have their domain spells available and either cures or inflicts available (depending on if they are good or evil). Under this idea the cleric should have a 1-20 spell point progression rather than the split pool like listed.

The druid gets their spell chart as spells readied plus summon natures ally.

The specialist wizard gets a spell of their specialty at every level.

***

Is this too weak or too strong?

Should the divine casters become spontaneous casters like the sorcerer and just use the UA rules for spontaneous divine casters?