Another TPK - Sigh.

[Wraith Form]

ForceUser said -> To paraphrase something Britt said last night

There's your problem, all in a nutshell....you have a player named Britt.






(dodges rotten tomatoes thrown from angry crowd)

(just kiddin'!)

 

[Patlin]

Putting the sentries head on a pike definitely set the tone, and called for an immediate and angry response from the Ogres. They should have either retreated to town and stayed in an inn, or else fortified their position. Fight would probably have gone better for them if they had cover and the ogres didn't.

Not only were things under their control beforehand (in that they picked the fight initially) but they had control over the terrain and general circumstances of where they camped. Did they even have anyone on watch?

While a DM should be carefull to make the challenges fair, a party has no right to complain if they hit a hornets nest with a baseball bat and wind up getting stung. Players need to make use of available information and take reasonable precautions to defend themselves.

 

[Hjorimir]

ForceUser said -> To paraphrase something Britt said last night

There's your problem, all in a nutshell....you have a player named Britt.






(dodges rotten tomatoes thrown from angry crowd)

(just kiddin'!)

/throws rotten tomatoe...

Britt is ForceUsers girlfriend and a keeper at that.

 

[Raven Crowking]

to extend your analogy, the chef also does need to take into account the people he is serving. if i'm having Jewish and Muslim friends over, it would not be a good idea to serve pork.

Granted. But, presumably, the chef is either getting paid, not serving the same people week after week on his dime, or enjoys cooking something other than pork. If what you really like is cooking pork, either you shouldn't be chef if you're going to eat with this group, or you should be chef for someone else.

But, if you're setting the table once a week (or what-have-you), you're doing a minimum of six hours prep for that once-a-week meal (in addition to entertaining during the meal), and you're forking over cash for supplies for that meal, you have some right to say what's on the menu.

To further the analogy, while you should take your diners into consideration, the guy who comes over and tells you what to serve is an ungrateful so-and-so who is unlikely to be invited back.

To further further the analogy, if the player has a religious or biological (i.e., analogous to a food allergy) imperative against thinking and planning, by all means you shouldn't expect it of that player. I find that somewhat doubtful, however. I also find that lowering expectations to the lowest common denominator serves only to further lower that denominator.

If 3/4 of the group wanted to leave because they weren't enjoying the game, then most likely the DM was a lousy chef. Even where playing styles differ, a good DM is likely to provide an enjoyable game for a reasonable amount of players. From the descriptions involved, ForceUser has around seven players, who have stuck to his game despite three TPKs in a few months. That doesn't sound like rats deserting a sinking ship to me....but, then, I could be wrong.

i don't have a lot of sympathy for the "everyone must play my way" style of gaming, whatever that way may be.

Then you should have no difficulty with the person who's investing the most having the right to pick the style of play. After all, the DM is not forcing people to sit at his table. He isn't saying "You must play my game." He is only saying, "If you play my game, you play by my rules." Which is, BTW, Rule 0 of the game.

On the other hand, if the player expects to be rewarded regardless of his actions, then he is claiming that the DM needs to cater to his style. Or kick him out of the group. Neither of which makes for a very fun evening.

There are lots of styles of gaming out there, but I would suggest that some are objectively better than others, in the same way that some literature can be objectively better than other literature. A reader might enjoy poorly written material, but catering to that reading preference is clearly not as valuable as pointing out better books to the reader.

It isn't the job of the DM to play school house. It is the job of the DM to set challenges that she feels are fair to obtain the rewards she feels are fair. Like it or not, that involves a degree of teaching lessons on strategy, tactics, role-playing, fantasy world history, or what-have-you.

If you lower the lowest common denominator, you're not doing the players any favors. If you help to raise the lowest common denominator, you are doing all of us a big favor, and I'll thank you for it.


RC

 

[Wraith Form]

/throws rotten tomatoe...

Britt is ForceUsers girlfriend and a keeper at that.

(in Homer voice) D'OOOOOOOOOOH!

 

[painandgreed]

First, when they stopped to camp a half mile form the Ogre's cave, I would have asked if anybody had the Common Sence feat. After they all said "no" I would have said "Ok, everybody roll a Wis check to see if their characters realize that camping such a short distance to the Ogre's cave, whose sentry you've killed and left the head as an insult, with a fire marking your location, is just a really bad idea." After they rolled, I would have asked what they were going to do. Most players aren't the hyper-intelligent or ultra-wise characters they're playing. Even if they were, a few hours or even weeks of game time can pass in a matter of seconds in RL. That's a lot of time the characters would have to mull over their plan in the heads and realize any obvious flaws. While players should pay for their mistakes, if the DM can find obvious dangers in their plan, then odds are that given the same information, that the characters would also in a reasonable amount of time and the DM should give them that information if they can't spend the span in real time. Plus all the additional reminders that the characters would have gotten if actually there in location: "Gee, while I was getting wood for the fire, I realized that we're close enough to actually see the front of the ogre's cave. Maybe we shoud post a guard or move farther away."

If you wanted to save the paty and still teach them some lesson, tehy coudl have been defeated and woken up in the cave waiting to be eaten. Again the Ogre's are away hunting or otherwise occupied. They'd have to get free and then escape and survive with no or little equipment. Ogre's are also pretty forgiving about such things as dead Ogres and might have realized there's more profit in selling characters into slavery to evil kingdom than just killing them outright. Thus characters are now slaves in some god forsaken mine (where they meet new characters for those who couldn't be reasonably saved) and must work to escape or othrwise gain their freedom.

 

[Nifft]

you are cruel! but being that your also a local (Im in Brooklyn) then you're ok.

I am indeed cruel.

Here's an example of how I dealt with an unexpected spate of party stupidity:

1) Party is sneaking into temple ruins guarded by hobgoblins, who the PCs know are very strong, because some of the PCs fled the initial goblinoid invasion of this very temple.

2) Party knows that the hobgoblins have hired Yugoloth help, including Nycaloths (and one Huge Nycaloth whom all the others show great respect for).

3) Party is, I remind you, allegedly sneaking. Not kicking in the front door. Sneaking.

They spot a pair of guards about half way to their destination. The guards are one Steel Predator and one Mezzoloth. They could have gone around, they could have "faked out" the guards (use an Illusion spell or some such), they could have turned back.... instead, they attack.

They are quite successful: the Predator succumbs to a Hold Monster spell, and the Mezzoloth is significantly injured. The party executes a C-de-G on the Predator, and fails a spell penetration roll against the 'Loth. The 'Loth teleports out.

From experience, they KNOW that any 'Loth attacked goes and gets help, as big help as he can get. So, the timer is running. In my head, I know it's going to take him a good minute or two -- 10 to 20 rounds -- to find his boss. So, the party has some time to do whatever they're going to do.

What do they do? They continue along the path. About two minutes later, they hear the thunder of an incoming teleport (it's a house rule, magic is not subtle unless it's supposed to be). They don't see the reinforcements.

What do they do? They continue along the path.

They see the Huge Nycaloth with two other Nycaloths flying in.

What do they do? "Scatter!"

The Huge Nycaloth easily snatches, grapples and carries off the flying wizard.

Situation: party had Teleport memorized (stored in Wizard who's now unavailable). Now, remainder of party is walking through a day's worth of rain and mud back to their base camp, while the wizard is... not having fun.

Now, what I'd intended was: party avoids patrol, party maybe avoids another patrol, party fights something unrelated, party reaches caves under temple and makes stealthy entry, party discovers how to make the goblinoids and 'loths part company (basically, steal the hobgoblins' money, which they'd intended to do anyway, so the 'loths weren't getting paid on time). Maybe lead a slave rebellion along the way. Standard heroic stuff.

Instead, I've got a Wizard who's been snatched up by a "plot-device" level bad guy. So, I improvise. It turns out the 'loths wouldn't mind betraying the ho-gos. (Anyone surprised? ) So they bind the mortals into 28 days of service, non-consecutive, time flow determined by Prime plane of mortal's origin, no time to be served in Faerie, etc., etc. -- a few pages of standard gimmie-yer-soul boilerplate, only temporary. Now the "heros" do what they'd intended to do -- kill the ho-gos -- but under the direction of the 'loths, who want out of their current contract.

Killing the ho-gos takes about four days... then they get sent on some other, less "heroic" missions.

-- N

PS: They've still got about 10 days of service left, and they don't know when it will occur. Mua-ha-ha-ha-ha!

 

[conanb]

To Tpk or Not to TpK that is the question?

I've been DM'ing games for a while now since I started playind DnD. I've had my share of TpK's over that time. When I was younger and less experienced I would sometimes gloat over getting a TpK. Now I find the toughest point and the tru challenge is to walk my players up to that line where a TpK is possible, but with strategy, smarts, or a little luck they can pull out. I always set up an escape that is possible. Maybe for not all the players, but at least for a few. Your front line tanks may rush in beyond where other's can help them. At that point, your other players will have to decide to either cut bait and run, or toe the line and maybe go down with their fighter.

Now I also plan a way out of my TpK's beyond the original escape route I try to leave open for the players. There are mitigating circumstances where I let a TpK go forward with no hope for the players.

1) Players act like their invincible, to everyone and everything.
This is the number one thing that eventually leads to a TpK. A fifth level fighter who stomps his way into a major city and demands that he be put in charge of the army is going to get laughed out of the city. If he draws his blade and starts swinging because he's ignored, well then he's gone. If the rest of the party backs his play they're gone too. I alert players with a simple "This guy looks really tough compared to you," or "This fighter appears to be much more experienced in the ways of the blade than you are," followed by a "You think you'd have a hard time taking him in a fight." Now some players may see that as me throwing down the gauntlet, but I let them know before we start that this is how "High level and High CR's are identified in your players eyes". I'm not going to say "You see a lvl 11 fighter." I'll say, "You see an experienced fighter that appears to have survived many fights," or something similar.

2) Players blindly ignore blatant clues.
Number two no my list. All the townsfolk in a village say "There's a powerful monster in that cave. I wouldn't go there without talking to old man Withers."
Then the players go to the cave ignoring Old Man Withers. Perhaps Withers knows that the thing can't be faced head on, or it's one weakness, or whatever. Players that blindly rush into enemies deserve whatever they get. I would warn them again maybe with another npc, like a surviving adventurer near the cave saying "My whole party was wiped out. The thing is horrible. Don't go in! I only escaped with my life because I'm such a coward." etc.
But if the players once again ignore this final warning, then so be it. Bring on TpK.

3) Players depend on me to save them.
Players who rush into situations expecting a Dues Ex Machina or for me to adjust rolls or something to make sure they get out of it are in for a shock. If you throw your life into the hands of fate, then Fate will decide it. Let the dice roll and the numbers come what may. I'm not going to try to kill you, nor will I save you. But if you think you can rush through enemy squares taking AoO's from eveyrone to strike down the evil wizard, don't expect me to fudge it to make it possible. You take the action, let chance decide. If you go down then you go down. You tried and you failed, it happens. It wasn't the smartest thing to do, and it was possible to succeed. But it didn't. So deal with the consequences.

Those are usually what the player does to have to deserve a TpK. If I think that my monsters are too strong, I'll make sure the players only run into them in batches they can handle. Or I'll adjust the stats a little to make them more manageable. I had one game where I had developed a harpy archerer. I didn't realize just how weak my players were against ranged attacks only. So I had the thing beg off. It was my fault for not realizing the major weakness in the party, and it also made it really obvious to them. They had a chance to adjust after being badly damaged by the flying archerer, and nearly killed. With no way to close the distance, and no ranged attacks that were effective, they realized that they needed a plan when they couldn't close the distance to their adversary.

Challenge the players, and allow them to adjust to their weaknesses. If this group hadn't adjusted by the second time, I probably would have let someone get killed to show them they still had a major flaw in their combat strategy. Not only that, one their adversaries had learned to use against them.

ANyway, just my two cents on the whole TpK thing.
-Alex P

 

[jmucchiello]

It sounds like Force User runs the same sorts of games that I do. I am a Tactician at heart and I am very big on exploiting whatever advantages I have and minimizing any disadvantages within reason and capability.

I'm curious do you take your natural tactical ability into account with setting the encounter levels of your set encounters? Seems like you and Force User should user slightly weaker than average foes (by average I mean making the leader a lower level than the average DM would otherwise) and make up for the slightly less power with your tactical ability. Of course this would make TPKs even more disheartening.

 

[swrushing]

[/QUOTE]

Very good points but all it takes is one smarter Ogre (the raiding party leader for example) to tell the other 6 INT Ogres what to do.

Uh, int 6. have you ever tried to tell children what to do? Did this always work? just having someone nrighter than your typical ogre telling them what to do goes not equate to them doing it, or even trying to do it, or even if they try managing to do it. No amount of telling is going to raise the majority of these ogre's dex or make them smaller, is it?

Maybe thats why he's the leader. Typical Ogres, ok Ill grant you that. Leaders and Shamans are another story.

So, if we have a leader ogre who has not only the brain sbut also the charisma and the muscle to keep the other ogres in line, then they all become stealthy enough to sneak up on parties?

Remember that the various MMs give you stats for the average creature of that type, for example the averaged out Hit Points under their entries.
Maybe a +1 or +2 EL adjustment would have been better, or smaller party of the raiding ogres.

Bingo. if you decide to use smater ogres, thats cool. But if in doing so you eliminate practically ALL of their major weaknesses (lack of brians, no stealth, no range) and have things all play to their one major 500 lb gorilla strength, then yes, you should realize this makes them a whole lot nastier.

The point i am trying to make is, if i wanted to run a gang of varmints who used cunning and stealth and such who were cr2 like ogres, i would use bugbears. look at bugbears and notice why they are cr 2. they got stealths in the +4 (12 more than our ogres), they got int's in the10s (four more than our ogres.) They even have ranged weapons with a chance of hitting. They have basically none of the glaring weaknesses of the ogre.
But when looking at firepower, the ogres are much more threatening if they can get to melee with +8 to hit for 2d8+7 vs + 5 for d8+2 as well as 29 hp for the ogres vs 16 hp for the bugbears.

if the gm decides to script away the orges lack of brains, their stealth problems and so forth he has just promoted them hugely in threat. he has basically made them ogre sized bugbears, and if he doesn't see that as a serious, major boost to their capabilities, then the party is not the one who should be getting the thinly veiled threats about their play and thinly veiled threats about their tpk.

if a player took a PC with int 6, with -8 hide checks due to armoru and dex, and the party's int 18 mage told him to be quiet and to execute good tactics, do you think the Gm would let it go? Would the Gm give him a bonus of sneak checks because "the mage told him to be quiet"? Would the Gm be expected to let the clanking moron sneak up on people or would he make, as he should, the lack of brains and horendous clanking play out as a problem?

I think the latter. i run and play and GM the latter. So when i hear of sneaky commando ogres, i don't jump to "stupid players" conclusions very quickly.

These things do happen though

yup, as is obvious from this thread. I just have a different take on the "why" this happened perhaps.