Another TPK - Sigh.

[swrushing]

none of those fancy smancy tactics were needed. The ogres needed to take them completely by surprise. They flawlessly executed that. After that, " the group didn't have much of a chance. They all died."

His words, not mine.

there are tons of other things the ogres did not do, and did not need to do. All they did was be flawless at exactly what was needed to get the job done.

it seemed good enough.

That isn't exactly a flawless commando raid where a crossfire attack is established with various rendezvous points made (each with its own order of preference and scenarios). Nor was there any indication of predetermined targets or complex strategies. Sounds to me like a bunch of ogres just came up and used the hurt-sticks.

 

[Warrior Poet]

I game with a bunch of suburban geeks who have never gone camping. If one of 'em is a Ranger with a +27 to Survival and Knowledge(nature), it would be sort of idiotic of me to not secretly make a roll for him and say, "Hey, your woodland skills suggest that the weird bumpy hillocks I just mentioned aren't natural, and might be the sign of some burrowing creature that makes its home in this area." Or "Given the sparse tree cover and the clear weather, it's possible that somebody could find your campfire."

Just wanted to take a moment and say this is a great post, and I found it very helpful. I recently (just this past Monday, in fact) had a TPK in the game I run, and your whole post has some really good insights into some things that can help keep a game on track. The details of my TPK are long, so I won't go into them, but I freely (and humbly) admit that the mistakes that led to the sad campaign conclusion were mine. Between an untenable situation, lack of resources, an overwhelming enemy (Blast! Still I misjudge this mysterious "CR/ECL" of which I have read so much ), and an inability to see the build-up to disaster, well, the party was hosed, and not because of bad play on their part. There were some bad dice rolls in there, but I made some big mistakes. I've admitted it, apologized, and the group has been understanding, for which I'm grateful. In the meantime, I'm trying to learn from what went wrong.

I particularly like your explanation of helpful ways to be a solid DM and bring in new players with little experience. Excellent advice!

Also:

By the same token, if my real-life computer expert player is playing a sharpshooting cop with no computer skills, he'd better not be using his real-life knowledge (unless he's doing it out of character to help the clueless guy playing the computer expert). He's actually been really good about that. "So, Steve, that looks like a computer thing. Can you, uh, Java that? Maybe you can, um, make it firewall with your ethernet? Steve? Steve, why are you crying?"

Thank you for this. I haven't been feeling well this week, but this made my day.

My compliments to your player. That's not only good roleplaying, it's darned funny. And I don't know the first thing about computers.

Sorry for the derailment. We now return to your regularly scheduled discussion of ForceUser's recent campaign.

Thanks,

Warrior Poet

 

[Hjorimir]

Yeah, they were flawless in the simple, simple plan. Hardly worthy of some of the comparisons you've made, though. I'm sure you did that to drive a point, but it skewed the nature of the situation. These ogres were not given the benefit of being ninjas or anything else equally rediculous.

Dungeons & Dragons is a dangerous game; characters die sometimes. ForceUser certainly didn't kill them with malice. What killed them were some poor decisions on their part coupled with some poor die rolls.

 

[swrushing]

I would be stunned to learn that ForceUser didn't allow a Listen skill check. Not saying it is impossible, but he's never done anything like that as a DM to me.

again, "did he allow a listen check" already beyond the meat. At what point did he allow the listen check? How close did the ogres need to get in the terrain to see the pcs?

let me put it another way...

had forceuser paid attention to all these details, had he used leadership rolls for the ogres, had them make silent checks while searching, had them roll2d8x10' for distance and in all these cases they got lucky and made all the rolls and even made the distance roll high so 150' was the place they stopped at...

if that were the case, that the ogres did all roll well when it counted and thats why the ambush was "completely by surprise"... then why in his initial post did he not say anything about "the ogre's luck was incredible?" and only focus on the player errors and "logical conclusion" as the culprits? if the ambush is created by amazing luck on the bad guys part, thats an issue worth mentioning.

Like i said, from the get go, the area IMO that was glossed over and not given its due course when forceuser went from "party messed up" to

Caught completely by surprise, the group didn't have much of a chance. They all died.

was the entire question of "do the ogres successfully and flawlessly mount such an attack." Do they try? Sure they try. Do they succeed flawlessly, gaining complete surprise? Thats where, IMO, forceuser dropped his GMing ball.

"Logical outcome of their actions" is not the same as" worst case scenario if things go really really bad for us".

 

[swrushing]

[/QUOTE]

These ogres were not given the benefit of being ninjas or anything else equally rediculous.

if they are 100% successful at sneaking, tracking, finding and gaining complete surprise on an alert sentry... how much more ninja do they need to be? he may not have given them the name ninja, but if "whether they can pull it off and gain complete surprise" is not even in question, they got the stuff of ninjas.

What killed them were some poor decisions on their part coupled with some poor die rolls.

I find it telling that the one thing completely missing from being worthy of mention at all as a factor in their demise is anything to do with the GM.

Maybe he, like his ogres, was flawless.

As i said some time ago, before i would say "great job" to a GM, much less flawless, everyone should be enjoying the game. if the players feel any of the same way he does, that doesn't seem to be the case.

I feel bad about it, and as a storyteller it's frustrating because it seems that we're constantly taking steps backward instead of forward.

 

[Hjorimir]

:\

What are "leadership rolls?"

I don't have my books with me and the SRD only mentions Leadership as a feat. I consider myself decently strong when it comes to the mechanics of the system. But if I'm missing something I honestly want to know about it. If you can, would you give me a book and page number so I can read it when I get home? Thanks.



2d8x10' for distance could have just as easily placed the ogres within 20 feet before a Listen check was even available for either party. On average, that makes 90 feet where you have a group of ogres making Listen/Spot checks against a single sentry. I admit, I'm not very good at using the distance guidlines for encounters and I should be. I will have to make a point of incorporating those rules into my game in the very near future.

 

[Hjorimir]

Heck, I'm 6'5" and damn heavy and I've snuck up on people before. Does that make me the stuff of ninjas? I'm pretty sure I would recall if I'd ever gone through ninja assassin training. Or maybe its one of those things were I've been kidnapped by the government and trained, then released into society where I will be activated by a mysterious phone call. Or maybe I’m like that guy in the Borne Identity!

 

[swrushing]

[/QUOTE]

What are "leadership rolls?"

soirry, its my slang. when you have a bunch of NPCs of less than good skill and character, you need to determine how well they do. Everyone for instances seems to think having a smarter ogre around to comew up with the plan lets him lead them.

So to answer the question tho of "how much do they listen?" how much do they stay on orders" and so forth is what leadership rolls are for.

to be specific, the question of "does a half dozen int 6 ogre brutes execute their leaders orders, stay on mission and not get distracted etc" is not an automatic fiat "sure no flubs at all" thing.

See several posts back where i listed a sample "ogre snafu".

Now, the Gm can fiat this. he can say "they are smart enough that there is no chance whatsoever that any of the morons will do something stupid and everyone will carry out the leader's orders during the long track with no problems." For simplicity lets call this the "flawless fiat."

The flawless fiat is defintiely something one would use when trying to highlight the strength of the npcs in terms of training and smarts. This would be a fine choice for say an elite band of warrior cavalry whose martial discipline and regimen was a positiove trait the Gm wanted to showcase.

For a typical soldier of average intellect and moderate training, this would be more of a roll. Depending on style it could be diplomacy, it might even be profession military (which i often use for "tactics and training in military style ops.") I would and many i think may agree, rarely if ever use flawless fiat for run of the mill troops. See other people's comments above about commandos vs regular swuads of human in the army.

For a band of moronic brutes like ogres, the issue would be even further in doubt. Flawless fiat would never be a good option here.

2d8x10' for distance could have just as easily placed the ogres within 20 feet before a Listen check was even available for either party. On average, that makes 90 feet where you have a group of ogres making Listen/Spot checks against a single sentry.

90' vs 150' produces a +6 shift to the odds in favor of the players at the very least, though other terrain aspects may still apply.

maybe the ogres got lucky with every single roll they "made" and forceuser simply did not know that that swing of luck was important enough to be mentioned.

or maybe, flawless fiat was used.

heck, were there any animals in these woods? Did any of the animals react to ogres tromping by in the middle of the night? Did owls or deer or any other varmints flee quickly at the sight of these? How many times in movies and books has an alert sentry become aware of approaching monstrous bulks by seeing these things or hearing them?

but then, in those books or movies, the approaching adversaries were not flawless.

but, the really good luck does kind of move it out of the realm of "the logical consequences of their actions", doesn't it?

I admit, I'm not very good at using the distance guidlines for encounters and I should be. I will have to make a point of incorporating those rules into my game in the very near future.

 

[Soul]

I think some here maybe entirely missing swrushing's point. From what I can tell, I pretty much agree with his statements. Which arn't really about the rule mechanics he has pointed it out, those are just imo to show a base line. The point is, that ForceUser by the comments he made was just following his logical conclusion based on the Orge's abilities, which to me based on those capabilities and the situation at hand sounds like he was punishing his players for doing something he felt was stupid. I don't for one see how the logical conclusion would be that the Ogre's returning from raiding all day, would spot the camp fire, and then set upon the party in full force with absolute stealth. There are plenty of things that could have happened hear. Maybe the pcs had just fallen asleep so they could have been more easily roused, or maybe it was shift change so more than one pc was up. Maybe some of the party were elves and the Ogre's hadn't come onto the scene until after the 4 hour trance was up. What seems to have happened was the Orge's recieved the best case scenerio for their ambush, and the PCs recieved the worst, and the person entirely in control of the situation the whole time was of course the GM. How many spot/listen checks were there? Why wouldn't the Ogre's consider this a trap? Why wouldn't some go to stay at their lair, etc.. Now, no one is perfect, I make mistakes like these all the time. However, when it comes to facing PCs with overwhelming odds I try to think as careful as possible and try not to kill them just because of a few bad rolls, unless its warranted, and in this case I don't believe it was.

 

[Sunderstone]

swrushing- most of your argument stems from the INT of 6 not being able to set up a simple plan, even when led by a leader. You will vehemently continue arguing this point beacause you feel its the correct one.
Others do not think this way, including myself.
Especially considering a 6 INT is only a -2 penalty. Not the -4 of a 3 score or -5 of a score of 1. Its just a -2, the same as Intelligence of 7. Average Intelligence (0 modifier) falls under 10-11.
8-9 gives a -1 penalty and is considered just under average. 6-7 Intelligence (both carry the same -2 penalty) is simply not as stupid or moronic as you make it sound like.

***A tiger with a 2 Intelligence (-4 penalty) still stalks its prey and tries to move silently before going for the kill. Are they commando tigers? Not in the least.
I disagree with the clancy-like flawless Ogres. The 6 INT is not THAT dumb, especially when they have a leader to help guide them.

As far as the -8 hide checks? Maybe the dice were real lucky for the DM and not so lucky for the players. Or depending on the terrain, they may have had Improved Cover which provides a +10 bonus to Hide IIRC.

You can argue about sound as the sentry can use a listen check, but there is a -2 per 10' of distance (cumulative) penalty from the sentry's listen check due to forest background noise. Where ther is only a -2 total (non cumulative) for moving silently in light undergrowth, or a -5 in heavy undergrowth (also non-cumulative).
Considering the Ogres only had to initially be quiet enough to get close enough for the entangle... its very feasable.
To take it further, the Ogre Leader could have gotten closer first without his whole band, cast entangle, then yell for his band to attack.
So much for your flawless 101st airborne Ogre platoon.