Anti-first-round-nuke feats

[GreatLemur]

I'm still unclear on why the tendency to open with the biggest available attack is a problem, exactly. Is your primary concern just a dramatic preference for the big "This ends now!" pull-out-all-the-stops-and-end-the-fight moment, or a dislike of "quick draw" fights that hinge on intiative checks? I think the previous concern would be better addressed by the kind of best-used-later-in-the-fight attacks that have already been discussed here than by any defensive ability (personally, I dig the idea of attack abilities that require the user to dish out or receive a certain amount of damage before they can be triggered--a la Iron Heroes token pools--or are only usable after you've seen an ally fall). But if it's one-hit kills you're bothered by, action points are one way to mitigate that kind of thing.

 

[Someone]

The ideal way to fix this is to change the underlying system, but that's too much work

I dn't think it's much harder work than witing a set of feats. It could be as simple as slashing the attack bonuses and save DCs all across the board, say from -5 to up to -10 (let's suppose it's because you don't know the opponents vulnerabilities, or need to study his fighting style, or something). Also, casters can't cast their X highest level spells; they need to "gather enough energy"

Spending one round atacking with a further penalty, or casting a very low level spell gives you one (or two) action tokens. Spending a round doing just a move action ("Catching your breath") gives you two (or three). You can spend one action token at any point of your turn to work normally, without penalties, for one round.

If you want even longer combats you can decide that you can spend action tokens as an immediate action to power your defenses (gain AC bonuses, temporal hit points or save bonuses)

 

[Croesus]

This may be more work than you want, but you might try something like this:

Token Pool: Every character has a number of tokens = character level

Spend Rate: 1/2 character level. This is the maximum number of tokens that can be spent on any one ability. Spending tokens is typically a swift action, but can be spent as an immediate action (ignore flat-footed restrictions) if the player so desires.

Token Abilities: Tokens can be spent for the following purposes:
*Dodge - Each token spent adds +2 to the character's AC for one round.
*DR - Each token spent grants the character DR 2/- for one round.
*Saves - Each token spent grants the character +2 to their next save.
*Skillful - Each token spent grants the character +2 to their next skill check.
*Tumble - Spend a token to avoid an AoO caused by movement. Every AoO opportunity requires a separate token (thus if 3 giants can attack you, spending one token only avoids one AoO - the other two still attack)
*Resist - Each token spent grants you 2 points of energy resistance to one element for one round

There are other abilities that you could come up with. I'd only recommend using tokens for significant npc's - ignore the mooks, otherwise the GM will be swamped keeping track of it all.

As for refresh, you can simply declare the token pools refreshed at the end of the encounter, or allow characters to recover one or more tokens by expending a full round action. To prevent some abuses (primarily with skills), you can limit tokens to being used only in combat, say after initiative is rolled, but before anyone acts.

If you want to limit the abilities characters can use tokens for, grant them bonus feats that are used only for selecting these abilities - maybe one at first level, and one at every fourth level (1, 4, 8, 12, 16, 20). This is probably a good idea if you have a lot of different abilties available for token use.

 

[Master of the Game]

Yeah, I was going to recommend tokens from Iron Heroes. You have to build up tokens while in battle, and the best abilities cost multiple tokens.

 

[Zibik]

I'm curious, do you plan to create another set of feats to offset these? IE a feat that allows +20 to hit for one round or the like. Now that sounds bad. *shiver*

Honestly, I'm not sure I understand the logic of not wanting players (or monsters for that matter) to do the best they can to survive. The reason those big attacks are used first is to increase the odds of survivability. If you can do 30 percent of the hit points in one round thats less damage you have to do in later rounds, and that is less time to be harmed. How is this bad thing? If you want fights to last ...use things like tactics, cover, etc.

Pardon me if this is threadjacking, I greatly respect anybody who puts the time and effort into the creation of something, and I'm not knocking your playing style at all. If this is what you want go for it, but to me this seems like its unnecessary.

Like GreatLemur said, use action points if its a problem.

 

[Victim]

Yeah, I was going to recommend tokens from Iron Heroes. You have to build up tokens while in battle, and the best abilities cost multiple tokens.

Still not a solution because token gain doesn't adequately reflect opportunity cost. IH characters can still have nasty as hell normal attack routines that quickly smear the opposition, which makes taking actions to gain tokens a waste of time in most cases.

Patching up the tactic of spiking down opponents with these feats is a bad move, IMO. An exclusive solution like these feats doesn't solve the general problem unless everyone has them - which means less variety in feat selection since most characters are going to want at least 1 of them.

Also, some of the feats like Defense Pool and Evade Magic increase the incentives for coordinated offensive spikes, since the effects diminish against further attacks. More emphasis on 'focus fire' tactics is equally contrary to fictional conventions.

Honestly, I'm not sure I understand the logic of not wanting players (or monsters for that matter) to do the best they can to survive. The reason those big attacks are used first is to increase the odds of survivability. If you can do 30 percent of the hit points in one round thats less damage you have to do in later rounds, and that is less time to be harmed. How is this bad thing? If you want fights to last ...use things like tactics, cover, etc.

That's exactly the point. Devastating alpha strikes are an extremely effective tactic. It's one that the system tends to reward. Hong wants to reward a different tactic - one that more often matches fictional combat. So the issue how to make 'something else' a more effective opening move. I don't really think that these feats are the right way to do that, but it's a shot.

 

[el-remmen]

I think blowing your power wad in the first round can be its own punishment. I mean, usually in the first round you are still gauging what your opponent is capable of. . . why would people use the big guns right away if it might not be necessary, and crucial to a later encounter.

Maybe it is just my players (and my own play style as well), but unless it feel absolutely necessary, they space out their use of their most powerful spells/limited use items.

 

[3d6]

Another way to encourage pulling out the big guns later in the fight could be to introduce more game mechanics like the Bo9S maneuver "finishing move", which deals minimal damage to an undamaged opponent, moderate damage to a damaged opponent, and heavy damage to a heavily damaged opponent.

 

[hong]

Patching up the tactic of spiking down opponents with these feats is a bad move, IMO. An exclusive solution like these feats doesn't solve the general problem unless everyone has them - which means less variety in feat selection since most characters are going to want at least 1 of them.

What I wouldn't give for more feat slots....

 

[hong]

I'm curious, do you plan to create another set of feats to offset these? IE a feat that allows +20 to hit for one round or the like. Now that sounds bad. *shiver*

I just might do that. But the downside would be something like: dazed for the next round, staggered for the rest of the encounter. So if you're going to use it, make sure it counts, and that there's noone else who can smack you while you're recovering.