Anti-munchkin rules?

[0-hr]

I'm putting together a new campaign and I'd like to avoid characters that do silly things just because the rules make it the most effective course of action. For example: using a shield for your primary weapon. If the real world worked like D&D, all of the warriors of the middle ages would have fought with a wooden shield as their primary weapon! So I figure I need to rule-zero either Shield Charge feat or the Spikes spell to avoid that.

Though I'm certainly willing to introduce house rules mid-campaign, I'd rather list them up front so that players can plan accordingly. So what are some simpel rules that I could put in place to keep people from following the munchkin route?

A couple ideas I am currently considering are:

- An xp penalty for anyone who takes one level of a class (or PrC) without taking the second level.

- Having multipliers overlap rather than stack (so Battle Axe critical hit + Rhino Hide + Holy Weapon is still just x3 rather than x5).

My goal is to have players make interesting, fun characters rather than rules-based uber smackdown d00ds. In other words, I want a campaign where even a bard could be a productive member of the company!

 

[trentonjoe]

It is always hard to try to limit "power gaming" and not stiffle creativity.

I personally don't have a problem with a shield expert but hey, to each his own.

I like the idea about needing to take a second level in the class. That makes sense.

Other things you can control as a DM. Don't like Rhino armor? Don't give it out! If the players try to make it, make them pay the gp cost in special material componets that they have to adventure to get!

I would avoid changing a hundred rules, just try to explain to your players the "feel" you are looking for.

 

[pontus]

You can't make rules like that if you want to prevent munching. There will always be stuff you miss.

The best way is to simply say:

Ok, guys, we're going for role-playing, with interesting characters with backgrounds and human weaknesses. We're not here just to build the most powerful character possible. If you can't handle that, then this gaming group isn't for you.


And then you, as a DM, have to make sure that the challenges you present to the party are not such that only a munched out character can handle them.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

One thing that you need to keep in mind: the rules assume a certain amount of power optimization for a character so if you do anything that reduces the effectiveness of characters across the board, CRs will be somewhat off.

Another thing that I like to keep in mind (having been frustrated by some of my players who were ineffective power gamers--the type who set out to create a character who can't be killed and who end up with a character who mostly just takes up space, I tend to think of this more often than anti-munckinning strategies): The height of role-playing is not being able to say: "I have a 14th level paladin with a charisma of 12, an AC of 14 and a silver dagger. He's got weapon focus greatclub and skill focus basketweaving and uses a light mace because it's the holy weapon of his god--sure a Barbazu or two (and, to be honest, even dretches) wipes the floor with him, but it's a concept character and comments on several aspects of our society." High level characters are supposed to be powerful heroes who do legendary things. They're characters like Beowulf who can take on a demon unarmed (even though he's not a monk) and win or swim three miles through the ocean while fighting off sharks in full armor. If you want to play D&D but don't want powerful characters who can do incredible things, you need to stick to low level play--high level play is designed to challenge incredible characters and determine what degree of incredibility their exploits can have.

On the specific issues you mention, I think you would be better served to disallow the shield charge feat and the spikes spell for the shield issue.

On the rhino hide issue, you might be well served to either disallow rhino hide armor entirely or to simply disallow any modification of the armor as listed in the DMG (if a paladin of high enough level to cast holy sword really wants to run around in armor that gives him a mere +5 armor bonus, he'll discover that his foes not only have enough attack bonus to hit him every time but that they can also power attack). Strict enforcement of the rules for rhino hide (only activates when YOU charge) would also eliminate one multiple from the spirited charge, holy sword, rhino hide, heavy lance smackdown.

Still, I'd say let the characters have their smackdowns. By those levels, their opponents can take it. And dish it out too. That's part of the fun of playing at high levels.

 

[nsruf]

You can't make rules like that if you want to prevent munching. There will always be stuff you miss.

Yup, trying to beat a munchkin with rules is like... well, a pointless thing

If you have a bunch of players who are massively into powergaming, there are really only two ways to go about it: accept it or look for other players. Ok, maybe this is too harsh and you simply have a communication problem with your group. Tell them what kind of campaign you want to play and that they do not have to create combat monsters to survive or have fun. Sometimes that works, too.

 

[Valmur_Dwur]

I'm taking a different approach. To prevent this have them start with stats for NPC's 15,14,13,12,10, and 8. By letting them know up front there are no Conan's you won't get any Course I'm running a PbEM so it's a little different.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Ok, guys, we're going for role-playing, with interesting characters with backgrounds and human weaknesses. We're not here just to build the most powerful character possible. If you can't handle that, then this gaming group isn't for you.

I'd have to say this is likely best. Granted, I wrote rules to quantify such limitations, which often act as a decent munchkin repelent, but I've got a group that like their rules that way.

I don't think your multiclassing rule is rather fair; Simply requiring training is usually enough so long as there isn't just a "training center" for PCs to go to. Learning that you'll need to go through training to pick up all those nifty Feats and new skills and (gasp!) spells is usually deterent enough. And if the PC does go through it, well, it was earned, so no problems in my book.

 

[Forrester]

I completely disagree that you can't do things to control munchkinism. You can't take care of all of it, but you can slow it down a lot.

One thing you can do is make sure you are VERY picky about any feats and spells that aren't Core Rules.

My list of "broken" things that have been nuked or modified in my campaign:

Haste is a 4th level spell, as is Slow.
Improved Invis is a 5th level spell.
Poly Self needs to be radically changed (adventurers wandering around like Stone Giants or Trolls is broken)

Allow people to take a new character class ONLY if it makes sense. The 15-year old half-orc Barbarian doesn't get to take a level of WIZARD just because he'd like to have Expeditious Retreat.

As a general rule, you might limit people to no more than two character classes (not including PrCs), and/or not allow people to multiclass within type (no Barbarian1/Ranger1/FighterX).

Whirlwind/Great Cleave (aka "Bag of Snails trick") does NOT work.

Psychic Warriors can't choose Stand Still as a feat.

Don't give out Rhino Hide armor in your campaign . . . just ban it. Ditto (please, please please) Boots of Striding and Springing).

No Spellcasting Prodigy, no Shield Charge (or whatever the hell the nonsensical feat is that allows you to do double damage when you charge with a shield), no Elemental Substitution.

From FRCS: Ban the damn spell that allows you to give a massive damage bonus to wooden weapons, and lower the spell that gives +10 to a skill check to +5.

Make Scrying a lot harder (and make detecting scrying harder).

In general, consciously consider whether any new feat, PrC, or spell ups the 3E base power level.

And that should be that . Good luck!

 

[Spenser]

When it comes to Polymorph Self, I recommend using the errata'ed rules (700k jpg). For example, these rules significantly reduce the troll-form's power (no regeneration and no rend) and eliminates the stonegiant-form as a possibility until 14th level. Fairly reasonable, I think.

 

[Forrester]

When it comes to Polymorph Self, I recommend using the errata'ed rules (700k jpg). For example, these rules significantly reduce the troll-form's power (no regeneration and no rend) and eliminates the stonegiant-form as a possibility until 14th level. Fairly reasonable, I think.

I completely disagree.

Permanent +7 Natural armor, 10' reach, a 23 Strength, and a 14 Dex with a form that allows one to use one's own armor and weapons is too strong for a 4th level spell.

Garbage about "Well, you can't walk into a town looking like that" notwithstanding.