Any crunchy RPG's out there anymore?

[Benjamin Olson]

It always amazes me when people have decided that basic math (addition and subtraction) is crunchy or complicated. I don't know if it makes me a snob to NOT want to play with people who fear basic math especially when most phones (even older flip phones) have a calculator on them.

Again, maybe it's not fair of me to say or think this but it's a huge pet peeve of mine when people complain about Pathfinder or Champions as crunchy games.

Maybe we should clarify, Is it crunchy because of the number options or is it because of the math?

My aversion to math is not that an RPG has ever thrown a math problem at me that I couldn't easily solve at the game table, it's that:

A) Time spent on math is not time spent on anything in the game that I take enjoyment out of. Whether or not there is a calculator on my phone, at the point where somebody gets a calculator out we are no longer playing a game, we are doing accounting. To me the optimal level of math for a game is the amount where I look at two basic numbers and just know the answer as someone reasonably good at math, and anything beyond that is a tax on my time that needs justifying. It might be justified, but it also might just be a sign of system bloat.

B) There is usually going to be someone at the table for whom math is at least kind of stressful. Yes, they probably can actually handle whatever math the game is throwing at them, but that does not mean they can actually enjoy an experience that involves doing it on the spot while the table waits for them.

Give me a table of people who genuinely like crunch and a game that actually makes it worthwhile and I'll gladly delve into the crunch. But if crunch really is in decline in the hobby I would consider that a positive move towards inclusiveness and possibly a sign of tighter game design.

 

[aramis erak]

armies erak, I have to ask - why would GURPS be in your heavy list but Hero System in your medium?

Hero is, mechanically, much simpler, despite the similar page count. The actual meat of the system for use outside supers or magic settings is much less involved than similar for GURPS.

The level of math and optimizations are about the same.

GURPS ads and disads are less consistent in mechanics. Hero's disads are far fewer overall than GURPS core alone, let alone GURPS as a line. Hero SYstem also has more consistent mechanics across disads, and, coupled to the open ended nature of them, make them easier to run and to use as a player.

GURPS has over 100 skills in core. Hero has about 30-50.

GURPS also tends to be "Buy the cause" while Hero is "Buy the effect then label it appropriately"... Both EABA and CORPS are also buy the effect.

GURPS can be run Rules Medium... but the default isn't going to be based upon grabbing the basic set and using the rules as presented.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

Give me a table of people who genuinely like crunch and a game that actually makes it worthwhile and I'll gladly delve into the crunch. But if crunch really is in decline in the hobby I would consider that a positive move towards inclusiveness and possibly a sign of tighter game design.

I agree that less mathy systems are going to be more inclusive. But I disagree that they're a sign of tighter game design. I think that level of mathiness and tightness are separate things.

 

[Argyle King]

I think it's worth mentioning that crunch and complexity aren't always synonymous.

I find that GURPS has the ability to be crunchy. But I also often find it to be more intuitive than games which claim to be easier and lighter.

It's a modular system, so the level of crunch can be dialed up or down.

 

[Campbell]

Exalted Third Edition is probably my favorite crunch heavy game. It has extremely an extremely dynamic combat system that requires players to handle a variety of resources (Initiative, Health Levels, Essence Motes). It captures the feel of slow motion wuxia/shonen anime combat better than any game I have come across. It also has a set of social mechanics that really do a good job of modeling tense social exchanges where both parties want something from each other.

 

[loverdrive]

It always amazes me when people have decided that basic math (addition and subtraction) is crunchy or complicated. I don't know if it makes me a snob to NOT want to play with people who fear basic math especially when most phones (even older flip phones) have a calculator on them.

Again, maybe it's not fair of me to say or think this but it's a huge pet peeve of mine when people complain about Pathfinder or Champions as crunchy games.

Maybe we should clarify, Is it crunchy because of the number options or is it because of the math?

The calculations isn't a problem, but amount of things you need to keep in RAM is.

But more importantly, I don't think that excessive crunch actually adds anything to the game, even from simulationist point of view -- I can't say that GURPS Martial Arts is particularly realistic, at least when it comes to MAs I'm familiar with: BJJ and Muay-Thai.

I agree that less mathy systems are going to be more inclusive. But I disagree that they're a sign of tighter game design. I think that level of mathiness and tightness are separate things.

I'd say that reducing mathiness is a sign of understanding the constraints of the medium.

Like, the only case where I would design a system with math heavier than comparing two numbers (and maaybe adding single-digits numbers together) is if I also make a solid automatization tools, like dedicated VTT or a companion app.

 

[Ulfgeir]

Some other crunchy games...

Eclipse Phase 1e. You need to use spreadsheats to make characters.

Western. Still not available in English, though they have sent out stuff to backers as beta-material.

 

[GrahamWills]

Some systems are not too crunchy, but can easily become so. For example, I played in a sci-fi campaign using FATE, with the fairly minimal BULLDOGS settings. If I wanted to buy and use use a piece of tech, all I had to do was roll the relevant two skills against a standard difficultly

Now I’m about to start a Mindjammer FATE campaign in a very similar universe, but with rules, that, if applied to the fullest, would include needing to check

• difference in tech level between my ability and the target items
• if gravity is an issue and my accustomed gravity is not the one in play, adjusting for that
• For purchasing, I’d check availability against the culture of the system and the tech level
• I’d also need to check for government type

and I’m probably missing some more checks. I’ve run Rolemaster campaigns and been in other high-crunch systems, but if you are looking for science fiction high-crunch, I think FATE MINDJAMMER will take it as far as you want

 

[aramis erak]

Some systems are not too crunchy, but can easily become so. For example, I played in a sci-fi campaign using FATE, with the fairly minimal BULLDOGS settings. If I wanted to buy and use use a piece of tech, all I had to do was roll the relevant two skills against a standard difficultly

[snip]
and I’m probably missing some more checks. I’ve run Rolemaster campaigns and been in other high-crunch systems, but if you are looking for science fiction high-crunch, I think FATE MINDJAMMER will take it as far as you want

The irony? Rolemaster is fairly simple, but massively crunchy. The majority of complexity is the sheer number of tables and the many, many optional rules; the tables are easy to use, and all player rolls are percentiles, so from a player perspective, Rolemaster's dead simple. Full of picayune little details one needs to track (hits taken, hits delivered, crits taken, crits delivered, distance travelled, and about 10 other factors to find your XP gains...).

 

[Ulfgeir]

Some systems are not too crunchy, but can easily become so. For example, I played in a sci-fi campaign using FATE, with the fairly minimal BULLDOGS settings. If I wanted to buy and use use a piece of tech, all I had to do was roll the relevant two skills against a standard difficultly

Now I’m about to start a Mindjammer FATE campaign in a very similar universe, but with rules, that, if applied to the fullest, would include needing to check

• difference in tech level between my ability and the target items
• if gravity is an issue and my accustomed gravity is not the one in play, adjusting for that
• For purchasing, I’d check availability against the culture of the system and the tech level
• I’d also need to check for government type

and I’m probably missing some more checks. I’ve run Rolemaster campaigns and been in other high-crunch systems, but if you are looking for science fiction high-crunch, I think FATE MINDJAMMER will take it as far as you want

Yup. Mindjammer is extremely crunchy and complicated for being a FATE-system.