Any gaming experiences with the new Thieves World books?

[Le Noir Faineant]

Hello,

Being a particular fan of dark fantasy settings, I want to ask if someone already has had some gaming experience with the new Thieves World d20 books from GRP. What I read so far sounds pretty interesting, but I am still curious if the book itself works as a stand-alone.

What would you say?

Yours,

Rafael

 

[Azgulor]

Haven't had a chance to use it in play yet, but the book's mechanics seem solid. I think they did a great job of nailing the setting with the classes and spellcasting system. The book's setting info is also first rate, as it should be given that Lynn Abbey was involved in the project.

My only criticism of the book is that it uses standard D&D spells. Alignment-spells have been stripped and the cure spells have been modified (effectively so in my opinion) but I think many of the spells don't fit TW all that well. With 90% of the book, I felt they nailed it. Spells being the last 5-10%, needed more work to satisfy me.

I understand the reason behind it, however. The TWPG is not an OGL game. It assumes you will have the D&D PHB (or some other d20 core rulebook). If this were an OGL game, I'd expect a total rewrite of the spells. In a d20 supplement that's probably too much to expect for a book that isn't solely devoted to the topic of magic.

Check it out. If you're a fan of the series, you won't be disappointed.

Azgulor

P.S. In case you're interested, I'm using the TWPG to expand my Kingdoms of Kalamar game. I use the Conan OGL game as the base system and have combined it with Thieves' World. I like the Mage-Priest-Witch breakdown of sorcery better than the sorcery system in Conan - I just think it fits Kalamar better. All I had to do was figure out Parry and Dodge values for the Thieves' World classes and I was pretty much set.

 

[Tharen the Damned]

You can compare both core D&D and TW if you compare the related books.
If Core D&D is Forgotten Realms Drizzt Do Urden, the Return of the Archmages triology and Brothers Majere Books (Dragonlance). All epic books in which the heroes fight epic battles and kill a lot of monsters.
Then TW is the TW books. A lot of small stories that build up a big story. Ok we have Tempus as an epic character (and some others), but you get my meaning.
TW is all about small adventures.
TW is also all about interaction with NPCs. In a small city like Sanctuary, you can not just kill a Thief and get away with it. Somebody will notice his absence and begin asking questions. If the PCs rise in power they attract attention by the NPCs who fear for their own power, by NPCs who want some part of the PCs fame and so on.
The TW Reputation mechanics is a very good tool, but the DM actually has to roleplay it.
The haughty noble from 1st lvl. will react differently to the PCs in 10th lvl.
And one important fact: The monsters in TW are mostly humans. No Dragons or Beholders to kill and take their loot, but other classed NPCs like the Players.
But IMO TW is great play either as a campaign or just as one adventure.

 

[Le Noir Faineant]

P.S. In case you're interested, I'm using the TWPG to expand my Kingdoms of Kalamar game. I use the Conan OGL game as the base system and have combined it with Thieves' World. I like the Mage-Priest-Witch breakdown of sorcery better than the sorcery system in Conan - I just think it fits Kalamar better. All I had to do was figure out Parry and Dodge values for the Thieves' World classes and I was pretty much set.

Hi Azgulor,

Thank you for that interesting insight.

Personally, my plans with the TWPG go in a similar direction - I'd like to add the magic rules based on mana to my D20 houserules and would add the City to one of my preferred settings, most likely Blackmoor or the Wilderlands. But maybe, if the upcoming releases are as good as the TWPG is said to be, I'll even try it as a stand-alone. I don't know the novels so far, and I am unlikely to read them in the future, but for a low-fantasy, very dark system with a dense background, TWPG seems ideal...

 

[Le Noir Faineant]

You can compare both core D&D and TW if you compare the related books.
If Core D&D is Forgotten Realms Drizzt Do Urden, the Return of the Archmages triology and Brothers Majere Books (Dragonlance). All epic books in which the heroes fight epic battles and kill a lot of monsters.
Then TW is the TW books. A lot of small stories that build up a big story. Ok we have Tempus as an epic character (and some others), but you get my meaning.
TW is all about small adventures.
TW is also all about interaction with NPCs. In a small city like Sanctuary, you can not just kill a Thief and get away with it. Somebody will notice his absence and begin asking questions. If the PCs rise in power they attract attention by the NPCs who fear for their own power, by NPCs who want some part of the PCs fame and so on.
The TW Reputation mechanics is a very good tool, but the DM actually has to roleplay it.
The haughty noble from 1st lvl. will react differently to the PCs in 10th lvl.
And one important fact: The monsters in TW are mostly humans. No Dragons or Beholders to kill and take their loot, but other classed NPCs like the Players.
But IMO TW is great play either as a campaign or just as one adventure.

Hi Tharen,

Thank you as well! The book and the setting you describe seem exactly to be what I was searching for in TW. Low, dark fantasy with a realist touch, not the usual kill-the-lich stuff. Also, the additional rules seem to compliment exactly with my own home made stuff for d20. If TW helps me to create the feeling of gloomy medieval city life, that's exactly what I am looking for, the city-based campaign I don't dare to do with *City State of the Invincible Overlord*.

Seems that you both convinced me to put the TW books on the very top of my wishlist for Santa...

BTW, Tharen, *pointing at yout location note*, do I write to a fellow German?

 

[GlassJaw]

The book and the setting you describe seem exactly to be what I was searching for in TW. Low, dark fantasy with a realist touch, not the usual kill-the-lich stuff.

Have you checked out Grim Tales? The reason I mention is that while I think the TW stuff is well-written, it feels a bit too much like "normal" D&D. Having read a good amount of the stories, I think the magic system in d20 TW is a bit too "structured". I'm a big fan of the dark and low-magic city-based campaign (my variant ruleset was created for that style) but I'd probably use Grim Tales as the core and borrow from the TW book.

So yeah, I probably would have preferred the TW book to be OGL as well, a la Conan.

 

[Le Noir Faineant]

I never heard of Grim Tales before... Guess I am stuck with my oldschool stuff... Checked amazon, but it seems that GT is already OOP...

Could you detail this a bit more, please?

 

[GlassJaw]

I never heard of Grim Tales before... Guess I am stuck with my oldschool stuff... Checked amazon, but it seems that GT is already OOP...

Could you detail this a bit more, please?

Start with this: www.badaxegames.com

There are also quite a few reviews on it in the reviews section. You could also try ebay. Wulf (the author) posts in here quite frequently and I'm pretty sure he still has some copies.

Grim Tales is a low-magic campaign toolkit. It's not a setting - it's a ruleset that lets you create campaigns in virtually any era or setting you can imagine. It's based on the d20 Modern classes but it's also a lot more. I've been toying with some various campaign ideas lately and it's the absolute first book I turn to.

You owe it to yourself to check it out.

 

[Red Spire Press]

You can also check out Dark Legacies (see signature), which is certainly both dark fantasy (quite dark) and low magic (including a broad range of all new low/scary-magic-appropriate spells).

 

[Azgulor]

Have you checked out Grim Tales? The reason I mention is that while I think the TW stuff is well-written, it feels a bit too much like "normal" D&D. Having read a good amount of the stories, I think the magic system in d20 TW is a bit too "structured". I'm a big fan of the dark and low-magic city-based campaign (my variant ruleset was created for that style) but I'd probably use Grim Tales as the core and borrow from the TW book.

So yeah, I probably would have preferred the TW book to be OGL as well, a la Conan.

While I am also a fan of Grim Tales (it's the 3rd pillar of my campaign - I use it for custom-build stuff that I can't get straight out of Conan or Thieves' World), I think the Grim Tales magic system swings too far into the low-fantasy camp (at least as far as emulating TW is concerned). The varying mana levels, the spellcasting system, and the Priest-Mage-Witch distinctions perfectly emulate the books, IMO. GT spellcasting as written could also emulate the mana-poor period of Sanctuary's history but is a bit too harsh for the normal-mana periods. It's probably a wash in the end analysis, however, since both books use standard D&D spells.

With TW+Conan I have pretty much all of the swords-n-sorcery archetypes covered. I could achieve a similar result with GT (and with probably a wider range of variation), however it's more of a toolkit approach that may not appeal to everyone. It also means you could pass on the TWPM. If you're not going to use the d20 mechanics presented within (classes, spellcasting, prestige classes, etc.) you're pretty much left with the setting info - and that can be taken straight from the novels if you're not going to use 80% of the book.

In any case, if Santa's going to bring Thieves' World, be a good boy and get Grim Tales too!

Azgulor