Any news from Gygax Games yet?

[grodog]

So, in short, AS&SH is an alternative means of playing a traditional-styled RPG, leaning more toward sword-and-sorcery and weird-fantasy, and less toward high fantasy; the game's setting draws literary inspiration from the works HP Lovecraft, Clark Ashton Smith, and Robert E. Howard.

I'm really looking forward to checking this out, Jeff: it sounds like the perfect game to use to run a D&D-meets-CoC campaign.

Lastly, I would be remiss if I did not mention the fantastic illustrations provided by Ian Baggley. Ian has been a workhorse, turning in close to 100 illustrations over the last year and a half, and his style perfectly captures the mood we are trying to capture with this game and its adventures.

Ian's work is quite evocative, and provides a visual look and feel for AS&SH that's quite distinct from any other RPG I've seen published.

 

[ghul]

I'm really looking forward to checking this out, Jeff: it sounds like the perfect game to use to run a D&D-meets-CoC campaign.



Ian's work is quite evocative, and provides a visual look and feel for AS&SH that's quite distinct from any other RPG I've seen published.

Thanks, Allan. High praise coming from the likes of the legendary grodog! And I'll be sure to pass the kind words over to Ian.

 

[SurgicalSteel]

For me at least, the frustration stems from the following:

We are told the Teeth of Barkash Nour is about to be published, that the next installment of of CZ is on track. Then we are told a new agreement has been inked with Mongoose, and...nothing.

We go to Gygax Games webpage and read:

"Hang tight folks we have something good in the works!"

and we have more than a year of silence.

She may look into something in the future, but at this time she has no immediate plans to publish any of Gary's works, although that could change depending on how things go.
...
If the gaming market never picks up after several years
...
Right now, Gail is focusing on the memorial project for Gary, as that is something that will last a lot longer, is not dependent on profit, and has a lot more people willing to see it done.
...

Virtually everything you have said here is very disappointing.

But I thank you for it nonetheless, because at least we now have the truth, which is: we should expect nothing for the time being, and it is possible we will never see any more of Gary's work, ever again.

I don't think any reasonable person would object to a widow honoring her deceased husband. I think that's something we can all agree is a good thing.

The big problem though for the old school is--Gary doesn't have a lot of finished work for the system people most want to see.
...
Castle Zagyg was him mostly giving notes to another. It might be in the best shape but still it's not as ideal as it was when originally proposed back in 2002/2003, due to changes, delays, and various factors.
...
Even if Gary had notes on Greyhawk proper, you couldn't really publish them without going through a lot of awkward name changes.
...
People need to remember that Gary, while having his own personal set of quality and things he wouldn't compromise on, didn't devote a lot of time to writing down stuff that was not commercial.
...
I think the latter is what she may be considering, as Gary always wanted to have a computer game, and LA is perfect (it was originally designed as a computer game, that's why the term avatar is used for what we call character). Plus, that's a good way to either finance the print side of things, or to give Gary's works to a new generation that may not care about AD&D.

I also think that the former might be considered in the latter doesn't work out.

What I find deeply troubling is, here is what I am hearing: "Gail's preferred outcome for Gary's properties is: the LA system and all associated works be published (ostensibly by Mongoose) making a significant profit, and upon this foundation, the licensing and production of a CRPG based on the LA license into the electronic entertainment market."

That is one hell of a mountain to choose to climb. Lets start with the system. The more I read and think about this, I get the sense this is why Gail broke things off with the Trolls: the LA system and Gary's frustration with the Trolls. Here's the problem: from the moment of D&D's inception, it has always been on top; its supremacy unchallenged. Only one game came close to challenging it: White Wolf's WoD, which managed to outsell D&D for a single month back in the early 90s. WoD is a radically different game, and achieved its success in large part by bringing new people into roleplaying.

Now consider this. The architect of the system is no longer with us. Unless someone picks up the reins, LA is a bona fide dead system. Who is going to be interested in a system that is "finished"? There will be some who are actually attracted by this. But not many. For most, assurance that their system will continue to grow is a good thing.


Now lets say, in spite of all this, GG launches LA, and it meets/exceeds expectations. Now comes the CRPG part. First, consider that Gary tried for a very long time to make this happen. Now examine the CRPG marketplace.

Lets first consider Bioware/EA. Considered by some the best makers CRPGs in the world, they in the past made AD&D and Star Wars games. They have since dumped both properties and replaced them with their own in-house developed RPG properties: Dragon Age and Mass Effect. Dragon Age is now being published as a PnP game, competing with D&D.

True, those paying attention know that since Bioware was acquired by EA in a nearly billion dollar deal, they are working on Star Wars again, but this occurred only because of the purchase with a specific goal: replace World of Warcraft with a Star Wars MMO as the #1 money making property in all of electronic gaming.

Aside from Bioware, the only major maker of single player CRPGs is Bethesda. Once again, Bethesda owns the property they are developing, whether its Fallout or the Elder Scrolls. In Japan, we also have Square with Final Fantasy. Again, the publisher owns the property.

Then consider MMOs. The number one is WoW. Again, owned by the publisher/developer. Are there MMOs based on licenses? Definitely: Lord of the Rings, Eberron/D&D, Final Fantasy, and Age of Conan. And a WoD MMORPG is in the works. Aside from those, we see again, a number of properties that are owned by the developer/publisher. And notice, all of those licensed properties have very strong settings.

In short, this is what Lejendary Adventures is up against:
-Star Wars
-Lord of the Rings
-Final Fantasy
-Dungeons and Dragons/Eberron (a FREE mmorpg no less)
-World of Darkness

And these companies are fighting for WoW's scraps.


Yes, it can be done. Its true: that mountain can be climbed, just as anything else can be done. But that is dependent on determination, on having plan or path, and on someone doing the work to reach that goal. And the architect is no longer with us. So who is going to do it?



If I have assessed matters correctly, and the above formulated mission statement is generally accurate, that means one thing: Gygax Games is dead and done. And that is truly disheartening. I devoutly hope I am wrong, and I would love to be proven wrong. But I am trying to deal with the facts as they are.

There are plenty of people (me among them) who would pay good money to see the notes to CZ/Greyhawk Castle, even raw, with Greyhawk trademarks expurgated with a Sharpie.

And there are several independent mechanisms that can be used to raise money and gauge interest, whether a ransom model of fundraising, a Patronage project like Baur does, or a Fundable, like Arc Dream did with Targets of Opportunity.

What I am really feeling here is a lack of will to make this happen.

What makes CZ more of a sore point is how badly the whole thing has been treated over the years. The way people abandoned the project, the way it has been kicked around. And now its happening yet again.

You know, one of the best things about reading the Upper Works is hearing Gary afresh, his "Gygaxian prose", his irreverent wit, and groan inducing punnery. I have no doubt Gail will create a fitting memorial of her husband, but it bears noting, the work Gary leaves behind will be significant part of his legacy as well.


Especially when one considers the nature of the roleplaying game, after a group finishes a classic module that Gary wrote, the DM can tell his players about Gary, the founder of the hobby. I can't think of a better way for Gary to live on than in the stories that he told through the things he wrote.

Thats more of a legacy than most people ever leave.

 

[JohnRTroy]

John, while I can appreciate the sentiment here, I don't think people's frustration is completely unfounded. Its important to remember that a lot of people bought a lot of books that were promoted as supplements to Castle Zagyg (Yggsburg, etc). Then, just as the "meat" of the line, the first of several boxed sets detailing the actual dungeons, gets released, the line is killed, without even a proper print run.

I can understand that frustration. I didn't say nobody shouldn't be disappointed about the situation. Gail herself understands this. Then again, regarding the CZ project--nobody expected Gary to get a health issue, Kuntz to leave, Jeff to be recruited and brought up to speed, and various other snafus. There were decisions made I didn't agree with, such as "expanding" Yggsburgh because it was taking too long to get things into print. And I can understand how the lack of communication can be disturbing.

I'm more concerned with HOW people behaved. There are people who are disappointed, yet have been able to behave in a calm, resigned manner. Grogdog, for instance, has been very respectful with his inquires. But for every one like him, there are people who crossed the line, stuff like Michael Falconer's meme-like thread "Gygax Games a Total Failure", people accusing Spenser Wright of being the "devil behind the scenes" or "the Blume Bros. in disguise", people calling me a "Sock Puppet" (say what, I've been active on the Internet for at least a decade, I'm not some fake person), people saying Gail is "Lorraine Williams 2.0". There was even paranoia about a poll on their web site, LA fans and C&C fans both got upset when some poll was made to vote on what system they wanted for CZ.

I suspect even if they were pleading with Gygax Games for information, the rudeness and disrespect had the opposite effect. Regardless of how people feel about the material, the simple fact is Gail still lost her husband of 25 years. I wouldn't blame her at all if this soured her from publishing anything. I think we owe her at least a level of respect--anything else comes across to me as selfish and thoughtless.

"Hang tight folks we have something good in the works!"

FYI, that's a direct reference to the memorial project.

But I thank you for it nonetheless, because at least we now have the truth, which is: we should expect nothing for the time being, and it is possible we will never see any more of Gary's work, ever again.

The former is true, the latter is not necessarily the case.

What I find deeply troubling is, here is what I am hearing: "Gail's preferred outcome for Gary's properties is: the LA system and all associated works be published (ostensibly by Mongoose) making a significant profit, and upon this foundation, the licensing and production of a CRPG based on the LA license into the electronic entertainment market."

Well, that is not necessarily the case, and I am only speculating. (I don't ask Gail for details on this when I speak to her, as I don't want to pry into her privacy). I think the computer game possibility is possible--but unlike your statements, I think it would be more prudent to try getting the computer game done first, and use the income that comes from that investment to push the tabletop RPG, as that seems to be becoming the norm this day. (Look at Dragon Age for an example).

It might be something else entirely. There could also be legal reasons to hold back communications. (Maybe there's already a deal in place and a NDA was signed, and maybe somethings holding that back from a quick launch). I think Gail knows all the drawbacks you mentioned. It looked like LA was going to be launched last year, but something happened in the pipeline.

The way to look at it is this. Gygax Games holds property and licenses it out, just like any other big name. They have pulled licenses. Its similar when a license runs out on some other IP. It goes away for a few years, then comes back.

There are plenty of people (me among them) who would pay good money to see the notes to CZ/Greyhawk Castle, even raw, with Greyhawk trademarks expurgated with a Sharpie.

And there are several independent mechanisms that can be used to raise money and gauge interest, whether a ransom model of fundraising, a Patronage project like Baur does, or a Fundable, like Arc Dream did with Targets of Opportunity.

What I am really feeling here is a lack of will to make this happen.

Well, first of all, regarding finances, I don't think it's any secret that Gary's works in the last decade were undercapitalized. Gary knew that, for these works he and others who worked with him took on the efforts in the hopes that by taking more on the "back end", it would eventually work out.

But that also lead to flaws--whether delays in the publishing pipeline, or people leaving projects. It also led to reciprocal deals, etc. I think one reason for putting projects on hold would be Gail being uncomfortable with this arrangement. Maybe if it's not worth doing in a typical fashion it's not worth doing at all. I think Gail is now in the hard place of making those types of decisions, even the difficult one of analyzing if continuing a project is worth it.

A patronage project would, IMO, be a method of last resort. First of all, by doing this I'll be there was an admittance of there not being enough people interested for this to be worthwhile from more traditional methods. Secondly, taking on a patronage project instead of a typical one leads to a situation where you take money in advance, and if things don't work out you have to refund it. Thirdly, this is usually a slow method of publishing. Kuntz has gone that route, and it is a very slow method of getting product out there.

I suspect what you propose could be a "plan B", but I think whatever else, we'll just have to see if the "plan A" ends up working out.

 

[nedjer]

GG will be remembered for pulling together D&D, for turning D&D into AD&D, for scenarios that introduced the idea of 'ecology' or 'systems' instead of a series of encounters, and for gradually helping the videogame industry move away from the fixed narratives of the movie industry.

Those efforts have brought fun, entertainment and no small amount of learning to millions upon millions. To then undermine his later work, (created under very different circumstances and with all the difficulties of trying to reach for an even wider vision than before), is comparable to saying Einstein was a rubbish scientist, because he didn't crack quantum theory as well as relativity.

If he was a bit driven or hard to work with at times, you'd also have to wonder if that wasn't necessary to achieve what he did achieve and hoped to achieve.

Which leaves me wondering why we celebrate military leaders and politicians with parades, buildings, statues, street names and foundations. While running a microfine rule over each sentence said or typed by someone who managed to introduce family gaming and active learning into homes in a way that most education systems have singularly failed to do during the same period, and with a heck of a lot more resources.

 

[Mark]

I suspect that if Gary's original notes were taken, the problematic IP redacted, and a patronage project were set up for the release of that raw material, you'd have the perfect storm of almost no overhead or costs and patrons being able to directly donate for the unadulterated materials they'd like most. That's money direct to the fund, little costs incurred, everyone happy. The 70K to 100K goal would probably be reached very quickly. The other suggested ways that this material has of reaching the public all seem to have more narrow possibilities of revenue gain for the fund and, thus, on their face seem less viable and more problematic. The patronage idea is low cost, simple, and appeals to the widest possible audience (no need to reverse engineer everything to use it with any particular system, nor any need to weed out any non-original extras).

 

[Filcher]

I can understand that frustration. I didn't say nobody shouldn't be disappointed about the situation. Gail herself understands this. Then again, regarding the CZ project--nobody expected Gary to get a health issue, Kuntz to leave, Jeff to be recruited and brought up to speed, and various other snafus.

Minor quibble, but FWIW, Recruiting Jeff was NOT a snafu in my book.

And while I don't often agree w/ Mark, I think in this case he is right. Patronage/ransom is the way to go.

 

[Filcher]

The way to look at it is this. Gygax Games holds property and licenses it out, just like any other big name. They have pulled licenses. Its similar when a license runs out on some other IP. It goes away for a few years, then comes back.

Agreed. But for every day we are further away from Keep on the Borderlands, that IP becomes less and less valuable. (To me. YMMV.)

Five years from now I might still buy a "memorial Gygax Castle Greyhawk." But ten? Twenty? The gamers that love Gygax and his work are growing older, and --- like Gygax and his peers --- we won't be around forever. Let us give you our money now.

 

[Maggan]

Minor quibble, but FWIW, Recruiting Jeff was NOT a snafu in my book.

I suspect John meant the need to hire someone and the time needed to bring him up to speed was the snafu, not the actual hiring of the person, or the person.

Cheers!

/M

 

[JohnRTroy]

I suspect John meant the need to hire someone and the time needed to bring him up to speed was the snafu, not the actual hiring of the person, or the person.
/M

Exactly, the "snafu" was, for lack of a better term, the "orientation and training", so to speak. It was good somebody stepped up to the plate but bad because it took time, as

That's money direct to the fund, little costs incurred, everyone happy. The 70K to 100K goal would probably be reached very quickly.

Just to clarify, AFAIK Gail is not using any IP to be sold to fund the memorial. All the memorial fund stuff is separate.

I need to make people clear that most of my speculations are speculations, as I must emphasize again I simply don't know details of Gail's publishing plans. They are educated guesses based on my past dealings with G & G. There could be other reasons for the quiet--financial, legal, personal, etc.

As far as publishing the raw notes goes--I don't think they would be satisfying enough for people to enjoy. (Maybe that changed in the last few years, but I dunno). I think people have these huge expectations of some hidden treasure that might not look that great unpolished, and I doubt a patronage project would be worth it.

More likely, there may be submitted but not published manuscripts of a few of the lower levels. Although those might be more complete, they'd require editing as well as removal of the C&C specific stuff. So, there would be effort involved.

I understand people's fear that this might either be "locked away forever", or that it could take years. That's understandable.

If I seem a little calm about this, it's because I know how bogged down Gary's work can get. Unlike CZ, there is what I call Gary's "last sourcebook/adventure", which has been discussed on forums. This is a sourcebook of a place called the Key of Sand, and what would amount to a campaign adventure, The Maladicted Plateau/Well of Souls. It was meant for Lejendary Adventure, but the KoS is more like a generic folio. I believe it is the biggest and most complete adventure written by EGG still not yet printed, the last true great unpublished work.

When did he write it?

1997! THIRTEEN YEARS AGO.

I mean, I've read the manuscript several times, but I really desire it to be in print, for myself and all of you. Why hasn't it been published, well, that's a long story, suffice it to say delays just kept getting longer and prolonged.

So, when I encourage people to be patient, I am speaking from personal experience. These delays have happened during Gary's life. In the big scheme of things, LA's been withdrawn for only 2 years, CZ for 18 months.

I'm sure Gail is going to do her best to get all works suitable for publishing out there for people. I can understand not wanting to wait "10 years", but we aren't at that point yet.