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5E Any one have any clue about the DC to apply poison?


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Athinar

Explorer
I have a feeling the Creators of the game don't have a Apply DC because they don't require a DC to apply them
 

zaratan

First Post
apply poison in what? like anoint an arrow in the poison that is in a vial?

Unless the guy have no arms and legs, I don't think you need a roll to do that.
 

Curmudjinn

Explorer
Well, the Poisoner's Kit does state add your proficiency bonus to any ability checks you make to craft or use poisons.

The bolded text implies there is a DC to using poisons that the Poisoner's Kit applies to.
 

Lanliss

Explorer
I thought of that as applying to the stealth roll when adding poison to someone's drink, or something similar. I don't think you really need a check for dipping an arrow in a vial, or pouring that vial on a sword.
 

I think that passage is meant more along the lines of "should your DM decide that use of poison in particular circumstances is not certain to succeed (i.e. dip an arrow head in an injury type poison), and not certain to fail (i.e. trying to put an inhalation type poison on a dagger), and thus an appropriate time to call for some kind of check, you should gain your proficiency bonus on that check if proficient with this tool."
 

Curmudjinn

Explorer
I think that passage is meant more along the lines of "should your DM decide that use of poison in particular circumstances is not certain to succeed (i.e. dip an arrow head in an injury type poison), and not certain to fail (i.e. trying to put an inhalation type poison on a dagger), and thus an appropriate time to call for some kind of check, you should gain your proficiency bonus on that check if proficient with this tool."
That's a whole lot of should for two words in a brief tool description.

Most likely that is the direction of intent, yet vague doesn't quite sum up the information about it. And if that is the original intent, there are no examples in the core books about applying improper poisons or applying them in strenuous circumstances. I doubt it is something that would ever come up in my own games, but it would be nice to see clarified for those interested.
 

Most likely that is the direction of intent, yet vague doesn't quite sum up the information about it. And if that is the original intent, there are no examples in the core books about applying improper poisons or applying them in strenuous circumstances. I doubt it is something that would ever come up in my own games, but it would be nice to see clarified for those interested.
I think this is one of the many cases where specific examples actually serve the opposite purpose - rather than helping uncertain DMs gain certainty and empowering DMs to call for checks and set DCs as appropriate to the circumstances of their individual campaigns, they cause uncertainty or leave a less-confident DM adhering to the examples even when those examples are not fully appropriate for the circumstances of their campaign.
 


Curmudjinn

Explorer
I think this is one of the many cases where specific examples actually serve the opposite purpose - rather than helping uncertain DMs gain certainty and empowering DMs to call for checks and set DCs as appropriate to the circumstances of their individual campaigns, they cause uncertainty or leave a less-confident DM adhering to the examples even when those examples are not fully appropriate for the circumstances of their campaign.
So, zero examples for a less-confident DM are more empowering than any examples? I see where you are going, and I understand the thought process, but I have never seen that method work out in real tabletop play by anything but an already well-seasoned DM. Little things like this tend to bog down less-confident DMs, as they deal with the advice from the members of their table.

If I ran into this in my own game, I'd generally just handwave it to keep the game moving. If they were trying to apply poison while doing some crazy physical action, I'd prefer to have them make a check for that action over the application of potion check. I guess, in that circumstance, the Poisoner's Kit could apply to that other action.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
The bitter truth is that the designers know the player base is divided on the issue of poisons.

Some DMs and groups hate it if poison is even close to playable and useful. ("Forces my hero into using evil trickery")

Other people just want to have a clear and easy rule. This thread.

So the DMG tries to have the cake and eat it too. The way the rules CAN be interpreted as poison is automatic and easy to use... at the same they can ALSO be interpreted as basically something only monsters get to use...

...is in no way accidental, if you ask me.

This means: you won't get a straight answer out of the WotC people. Or you will get two, directly contradicting ones. So don't hold your breath.

Instead: make up your own mind. Which kind of ends the discussion.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
An ability check and DC are only required when the outcome of the action is uncertain. The rules can't decide what is or isn't uncertain. That is the role of the DM. If you think that trying to apply poison to a weapon (or whatever) has an uncertain outcome - perhaps the character is trying to do it on horseback while racing through the city or is trying to get it on a weapon before the charging monster tears the character's throat out - then call for an ability check with an appropriate DC and have in mind fun, memorable consequences for failure. If there isn't anything that is making the outcome of using poison uncertain, then just narrate the result of the adventurer's action.
 

Athinar

Explorer
dip an arrow head in an injury type poison"
I think it would be easier to pour out the poison from the small vail than shove a huge arrow head into the small opening of the small vial

unless in your world the poison comes in moonshine jugs
 
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Athinar

Explorer
Some people believe the DC to apply poisons is the DC to save against the poison
Purple Worm Poison is DC 19; this will kill the poisoner sooner or later
 

Athinar

Explorer
("Forces my hero into using evil trickery")
We need to stop using our American culture and values in a fantasy world

Natives in south America uses the poison from the Poison Dart Frog to kill animals to eat, do you call them "Evil"
we use poisons to kill rats and other vermin, are we evil, maybe

so for others like Rangers to kill vermin like Orcs or goblins would not be evil but merciful - quick death over a death of a 1000 cuts
 

Athinar

Explorer
Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of elves that live a 1000 years, they might decide this century out of boredom to be evil
 

I think it would be easier to pour out the poison from the small vail than shove a huge arrow head into the small opening of the small vial

unless in your world the poison comes in moonshine jugs
There is a whole world of possibility between poison only being kept in vials too small to insert any type of arrow into (not all arrow heads are as large as modern broad-head tips), and poison only being kept in whatever container you are meaning when you say "moonshine jugs."

For example, a small sponge-filled waterproof pouch with an opening large enough for a narrow dagger or an arrow, designed to make applying poison quick and easy with little to no risk of spillage, and low risk of the container being broken accidentally.
 

So, zero examples for a less-confident DM are more empowering than any examples?
Well, more like "only general examples such as those in the Typical Difficulty Classes table at the beginning of the Using Ability Scores section are more empowering than specific examples that can't take only what circumstances seem to matter in a particular actual play situation into account."

I see where you are going, and I understand the thought process, but I have never seen that method work out in real tabletop play by anything but an already well-seasoned DM. Little things like this tend to bog down less-confident DMs, as they deal with the advice from the members of their table.
I think you are underestimating inexperienced DMs. Also, I've seen numerous would-be DMs overwhelmed by the fiddly DC setting advice found in the 3.5 rules because the mere presence of such detailed examples resulted in their assumption (however incorrect it is) that they had to stick to those numbers, rather than being free to go with their gut and just set a DC that "felt right."
 

Athinar

Explorer
I believe there is no DC for Appling poisons but if you Fumble on an attack with a poisoned weapon DC 15 to not to nick your self with it
 

Illithidbix

Explorer
I believe there is no DC for Appling poisons but if you Fumble on an attack with a poisoned weapon DC 15 to not to nick your self with it
This seems a perfectly usable house rule, but I can't find a trace of it in the PHB or DMG.
The only mention I can find to the concept of a Fumble in combat is a brief mention of "Critical Success or Failure" on page 242, which is entirely upto the DM.

The DMG *does* mention on page 258 that if you are *harvesting* poison from a dead or incapacitated poisonous creature and you fail the DC:20 Intelligence (Nature)* check by 5 or more, the character is subjected to the creature's poison.

There doesn't seem to be any listed DC for applying poison
Nor does it make it clear how many uses a dose of applied poison is good for (I presume one).

The players handbook equipment section does list a "basic poison" which you can extrapolate rules for other injury poisons.
Page 153 of the PHB said:
Poison, Basic. You can use the poison in this vial to coat one slashing or piercing weapon or up to three pieces of ammunition. Applying the poison takes an action. A creature hit by the poisoned weapon or ammunition must make a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or take 1d4 poison damage. Once applied, the poison retains potency for 1 minute before drying.
EDIT: The semi-official Sage Advice Tweets suggest blade venoms are meant to last for 1 minute and for more than one hit. (http://www.sageadvice.eu/page/2/?s=poison)

Edit again! The DMG Errata however seems to imply, not not quite specify the opposite... http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/DMG_Errata.pdf
 
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