Any Ph.D.s or Lawyers in the crowd? Questions about how it goes.

[Ry]

So I'm facing a decision in the very near future: Seek my Ph.D. in philosophy, or go to Law School. I've got the marks, the LSAT, the GRE, all of that is already in the bag. My undergrad is done, and I've been working for the last year to put my wife through teacher's college. From what I've heard from a man who's gone through both, I'm more interested in philosophy, and more suited to the rigors of law school. So it's 50/50.

To the Ph.D.s: Does a Ph.D. in philosophy consign me to moving all over North America if I want a job in an actual university? Do I need to be willing to move to a prominent US university for my graduate work in order to get hired once I'm finished?

To the lawyers: Do you know of promising graduates that are having a hard time finding work? Is the field really all 16-hour days? Do graduates end up declaring personal bankruptcy from the loans they take out?

 

[Chun-tzu]

To the Ph.D.s: Does a Ph.D. in philosophy consign me to moving all over North America if I want a job in an actual university? Do I need to be willing to move to a prominent US university for my graduate work in order to get hired once I'm finished?

I know a guy in a History Ph.D. program, and we've talked about this a bit. He's pretty on-the-ball, and has been told that who you work with (i.e., your chair) is more important than what school you go to.

Neither your alma mater nor your chair are any guarantee of work, of course. Teaching jobs at universities are tough to get these days (from what I've heard), so the more flexible you can be about moving, the better your chances of getting something.

What you study can make a big difference in getting a position. For example, one English Lit Ph.D. I know got a job because she had studied children's lit (as well as being fully qualified, of course). She also moved halfway across the country for it, though.

The other thing that's essential in the world of academia is networking. Never underestimate the importance of networking. Many times it's not just what you know, but who you know that makes the biggest difference.

 

[msd]

To the lawyers: Do you know of promising graduates that are having a hard time finding work? Is the field really all 16-hour days? Do graduates end up declaring personal bankruptcy from the loans they take out?

I'm a 2nd lear law student in Boston that just went through big-firm recruiting so I can give you a little insight into at least the *pitch*.

Do you want to work for a big firm doing corporate work? Jobs are hard, if not impossible to find, unless you attend a good school and are at the top of the class. You get those jobs and paying off the loan is easy (first year starting salary in a large Boston firm is 125k before bonus - that's public information, not divulging anything you couldn't find in the benefits section of any major Boston firm website). Get ready for the hours...my friends (older classmates) who work in the firms say that the life of a young associate is not always the best. I don't think its necessarily always 16 hour days, but I think there is a lot of that and there are no 10 hour days (but then again, there aren't in law school either)

If you don't want to work in a large firm or don't like that kind of work, your options broaden. Some of the work in the public sector is really interesting. I interned last summer as a law clerk for the Mass Attorney General. Great work, nice people, but an Asst. Atty. Gen. makes like 45k. That might sound like a lot if you work in the FLGS, but try paying back 100k in loans while living in a large eastern city, with its cost of living, and its really not that much.

Law school is great, but a lot of people seem to be there for the wrong reason...if you really are compelled by the law, legal thought, legal reasoning and writing, its a wonderful place to be. It is WAY too much work if what you are looking for is the quickest way to a nice career with a fat paycheck. That's called business school.

Let me know if you have more questions.

 

[der_kluge]

You could always consider public office.

 

[Ry]

Thanks, msd; your stuff was really informative. The people who graduate and work in the public sector - are they at least paying their bills? Do they have time for their children and spouses outside of work?

In the same timeframe, my wife will have been a teacher for 4 years, on top of my salary, so as long as it's not fiscally disastrous, it looks like the way to go. In addition, I'm in Canada, so my debt load would be at least a little less valuable, and depending on which school I choose, tuition ranges from around the $12 000 CAD mark to the $20 000 CAD mark. As far as suitability, I want to be challenged in my job, and rational argumentation has always been my strongest skill. I've never had the illusion that it's easy.

 

[tarchon]

A tenured academic post will almost always require at least couple years of of gypsy life, unless you're really hot snot or you already have a lot of other relevant background. On the other hand, it you have a PhD that is employable in the commercial sector, you can do OK. Engineering PhDs don't start quite as high as lawyers at Boston law firms, but then we rarely have to pay off student loans either.

 

[Ry]

Sadly, philosophy is the thing for me. I know I don't have to do what I did in my undergrad, but my purely academic interests are in philosophy (rationality and its relation to ethics, with a little international ethics thrown in on the side) and law (see last brackets).

 

[Dingleberry]

My (and my wife's background): I was a philosophy minor (math/poli sci degree) and went straight into a top 20 state law school; my wife was a classics major who went straight into a top 3 law school. We both enjoyed law school as an academic challenge, though I had to do a lot better in my class than my wife did to get the same interviews and, ultimately, the same job. After several years of big firm private practice (which is NOTHING like law school, or what you study in law school) with long hours (typically 10-14 hour days, plus at least one weekend day - SLAVE to the billable hour and rainmaking), little control over life planning (regularly having to cancel plans/vacations at the last minute) but big pay (necessary to pay down the ridiculous educational debts, mostly from her law school), she went to work for the government and I went to an in-house corporate gig. We each took big pay cuts (hers was 50%, mine was 40%), but we have never regretted it because we feel like our lives are ours again. (We're now 8 years out from law school.) The only difficulty was getting used to the lifestyle change that accompanied the pay cuts. Luckily, we knew we weren't going to stay in private practice forever, so we had planned for it by living well beneath our means. Other of our lawyer friends lived it up because thought they would stay at high-paying firms forever. Now they desperately want to get out, but are finding that the lifestyle change would be too severe (this is commonly referred to "golden handcuffs"). Also, fidning the right in-house or public service job is not an easy task, and can take a long time. My wife found hers quickly (that top 3 JD works wonders), but it took me 2 years.

That all said, I have friends in private practice who love it - it's a good fit for some, terrible for others. Given the info you've provided, I'd expect that you would probably really enjoy law school, but really NOT enjoy practicing law.

Hope that helps.

 

[Silver Moon]

I wish you luck on either route. I just received my Doctorate last June, after six long years of working on it part-time while holding down a full-time job, a part-time job and a family of five. It takes a lot of hard work but I think that you will find it worthwhile at the end. Just take things one step at a time.

 

[Akrasia]

Hello Rycanada!

At the risk of sounding immodest, I think I might have some good 'insider' advice.

I am a Canadian as well, and have a Ph.D. in Philosophy. My Ph.D. is from the University of Michigan. (I should mention, given your interests, that the University of Michigan is recognized as having the best faculty in normative ethics and meta-ethics in the world right now -- see the link provided at the bottom of this post for a comprehensive ranking of different programs in different areas of philosophy.) My B.A. is from the University of Toronto, and I also have an M.Phil in Politics from the University of Oxford. My research interests are in political philosophy and the philosophy of action (especially shared agency). I have written on international justice.

To the Ph.D.s: Does a Ph.D. in philosophy consign me to moving all over North America if I want a job in an actual university?

Yes. :\

Right now, I am teaching at Stanford University.

However, my position is nontenure-track in nature (a three year contract). :\
So I will be moving again soon (hopefully to a tenure-track position).

If you want to live in a specific place or area, you should not go into philosophy (at least if you want an academic job).

Do I need to be willing to move to a prominent US university for my graduate work in order to get hired once I'm finished?

Yes.

Although you might also get a job if you go to Oxford, A.N.U., or the University of Toronto. (I have good friends from both Oxford and Toronto who have landed fine jobs in recent years.) However, the fact of the matter is that most of the best philosophy faculties -- and certainly the best graduate programs -- are in the United States right now.

The following website has a some good information on graduate programs in philosophy (including a comprehensive ranking of different programs' strengths):

http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/

I would be happy to answer any other questions you might have.

Good luck!