Any Ph.D.s or Lawyers in the crowd? Questions about how it goes.

[qstor]

I'm 6 years out of law school. I went to a 3rd tier school. I passed the Maryland bar on the first chance, which was important to me. I dosen't matter where you went to law school if you can't pass the bar exam.

It took me a while to find a job. I moved to my home town area of Washington DC after law school. And there were a ton of lawyers. I eventually found a job doing collections at a small firm which I HATED. The guys were right wing Christians and didnt treat me very well. I did document review work on a large scale trial for a few months then got in at Maryland Legal Aid. I loved working there. I had law school loan repayment money. I'll still have my loans for a while but they aren't crushing me. I can't do the double payment thing but I can pay them off. I got some money from my grandparents after law school that enabled me to pay a good portion of the loan off which was good. I consolidated too for a lower interest rate.
I moved to Michigan cause my wife wanted to be closer to her mother. Her mothers 16 year boyfriend died of cancer and she wanted to be there for her mom. I eventually got a job at Michigan Legal Aid which I really like too. Legal Aid programs are my time. I have good benefits and I haven't really had to work weekends at all. Its pretty much a standard 40 hour week. I should also mention that I do like my job, especially the part helping out people who aren't that well off. Must be the Good alignment in me

Government work like Jeff mentioned for attorneys is pretty much 40 hours a week.

I would sugguest talking with some law students at a nearby school and see if its your thing. I would sugguest going to a state school too for the cheaper tuition. Especially if you plan to stay in your home state.

I was surprised at the number of lawyers on the boards. I play a lot of Living Greyhawk and I know about six lawyers that play LG.

Good luck! PM me with any questions

Mike

 

[TerraDave]

Rycanada, you may be jumping ahead a little bit.

First, you have to get the PhD! As someone who finally finished recently (in another subject), I feel it is worth reviewing the “hierarchy of pain” that getting the degree normally involves.

First, classes. These will be more focused then undergrad, but may be quite a challenge until…

Second, Comprehensive exams (“comps”). These make classes look like a cakewalk. But after passing (if you pass) you will get a big self-esteem boost, until…

Third, dissertation. As they say, this all depends on your advisor, but from people I know well, it can be a truly horrible experience.

Don’t underestimate any of these.

In terms of time and money, yes you can get fellowships or other funds, and you must! Because that degree won’t pay otherwise (these also normally involve some teaching or research, and can be a good source of experience).

In terms of time, 5 years is good, but people, at least in some fields, take 6, 7, 8….I have known of 10+ years.

And then there is getting the job, and keeping one. Get your papers and recommendations out there, then publish, publish, publish, (while carrying a big teaching load).

Good luck!! (but seriously, if you do this, just know what you are getting into).

 

[The Horror]

For God's sake man don't do it. A PhD is one long exercise in pain and frustration. The stress is continuous and doesn't let up - for 4 years. I'm finishing off mine in the biological sciences, which I know is very different to a philosophy one given that mine is done purely by research. Still, you will obtain much pain from it.

Here is something I posted on another forum not too long ago re my PhD. Nothing has changed, so I'll repost it here.

One bit of advice though: it really is all about the supervisor. If you decide to do a PhD do find someone you know for sure you can connect with. You'll save yourself an endless amount of agony that way.



----------------------------------
Well, my current job is the endless horror of my PhD. It sucks. I hate it with a passion.

Why? Because it has all the downsides of working, and none of the upsides. I get pay (in fact, now that my scholarship has run out I get close to zero pay). I pull outrageous hours each week, staying back until 10:00 pm on a regular basis and coming in both Sat and Sunday every week. I don't get enough responsibility to direct the overall research of the lab and instead focus on my own small projects - the same projects I have spent four years plugging away at. In fact, my supervisor is so controlling with every minutia of lab work everyone here does that I am lucky to be the first to see my own results. Some nights I get so stressed that I can't get to sleep. Other nights I remember how much I hate the lab that I don't want to go to sleep - because I know that when I wake up I'll just have to go back in again. My girlfriend thinks that I am cheating on her - she just cannot believe that any person can spend so many hours working like this. I also have to kill a lot of very cute animals, though I stopped feeling anything a long time ago. That of course is more troublesome to me than the actual killing itself.

The only thing that keeps me going is the fact that I love science so much, and how much I look forward to the day when I'll actually be able to do some real science. The kind of work that is both stimulating and rewarding, and that gives an euphoric high when you discover something for the first time that is unequaled in any other field I can think of. I long for the golden days of my honours year, and I can only but dream of what it will be like when I finish. Ideally that day should come towards the end of January 2005, but I am already resigned to the fact that completion is to a large degree out of my hands at this late stage.

So yes, I hate my job. Every week I think of quitting, and every week I have to remind myself how much I would eventually regret it if I did.



The Horror

 

[tarchon]

The advisor makes a huge difference. The single biggest mistake people make with PhDs is getting a... nicknameforrichardhead advisor because he's "good" or they just don't know any better. It's especially common with foreign grad students because they don't know the local culture as well as natives do, and so are less attuned to the warning signs. I knew several profs who could only get students who couldn't speak English, because anybody who could really understand the profs in question immediately realized that they were insane sociopaths. Never, ever, ever sign on as a PhD student with someone unless you've got a good feeling for what they're like and how your personalities will mesh. PhD programs often last longer than a typical marriage - know what you're getting into.
My advisor was probably a little more hands-off than is perhaps ideal, but I naturally have a tendency to strike out on my own and take over things I'm working on anyway (just ask alsih2o), so it worked out great. I got to do pretty much what I wanted and he, being on the fast track, didn't have to pay attention to little details like proposals and papers and research. My big PhD horror story was really with the university purchasing department ("order? what order?"), but that's one of the act-of-god kinds of things.
Also, if you're doing a real PhD, by which I mean one that involves real research and not just some classes with a perfunctory research paper, the best way to get independence - should you want it - is to go out and scare up research projects, come up with ideas and write proposals. Even a control-freak prof tends to be more than happy to give students more control if they're bringing in their own projects (i.e. money). Independent fellowships have a similar effect, though not as pronounced.
Advisors who tend to micromanage usually do better with students who are less confident and need a more structured environment. I've seen people who had advisors like that and got along just fine because they weren't terribly independent.
You don't have to see totally eye to eye with an advisor, like mine was a devout Christian (and perhaps a closet creationist (shhh!)) and I'm... not, but we got along fine because we understood each other and had complementary working styles.

 

[JoeBlank]

Coming up on ten years out of law school myself. I've worked a billable hour sweat shops, plaintiff's firms, and as in-house counsel for an insurance company.

The in-house job required the least hours, being more like a regular 40-hour week. The pay was also the lowest, but certainly decent. The plaintiff's work was more flexible, but the less you work the less you make.

Now I am at a "reasonable" defense firm. Kind of rare in the our bread and butter is insurance defense, but we limit our defense clients so that we can take select plaintiff's cases too, without a conflict. I like being able to do a little of each. I say the firm is "reasonable" because the firm's philosophy is to require reasonable billable hour goals, and not the reward meeting the goal by constantly raising it. I almost never work weekends. Any evening work I am able to do from home, and I keep that to a minumum too.

Don't know if I have any actual advise to give, other than to say that there are options with a law degree. If you want to make the big money, or have to because of student loans, you limit your options and will probably have to take a job that will require 60+ hours per week.

As someone earlier said, don't overextend yourself financially just to afford the "best" law school. After your first couple of years practicing your job performance will matter a lot more than the school you attended. I choose a public school, University of Georgia, because the cost was less than a third of the costs of attending Emory, a top tier private school.

Good luck to you, and let us know how it goes.

 

[hong]

Geez.

More and more, I get the feeling I really lucked out on my PhD (ANU, computational statistics). It was 3 years of a combination of C hacking, working any hours I wanted (which meant 2am-1pm a lot of the time), socialising with a great bunch of people at my residential college (Bruce Hall), and rediscovering the joys of beer and 80s rock.

Mind you, I took a rather idiosyncratic path to the degree, compared to most grad students. I was already employed full-time with a big company, and they were willing to keep me on half-pay while I went off to uni (!). This alone meant I didn't have to scrounge for scholarships and teaching positions while I was studying, and being in the Austrian education system means I didn't have to pay huge fees either (not even HECS). I also had a very hands-off supervisor, so I had a lot of freedom to do my own stuff. I get the feeling he was quite happy with this arrangement, as it meant he was also free to get on with his own research (and he does a HECK of a lot of research).

Really, I can't think of anything in my PhD time that would count as a horror story. The closest might be how the examiners wanted to hold an oral exam (not common in Austrian circles), but even that turned out to be a breeze.

 

[hong]

My god man, how can you beat Summers off!

Said Logan to Jean.


Hong "or should that be Jean to Logan...?" Ooi

 

[Brennin Magalus]

PHILOSOPHY, n.
A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.--Ambrose Bierce

My friend earned a bachelor's degree in philosophy from the University of Utah and went on to Cornell to earn a J.D. However, I think if he had it to do over again he would continue studying philosophy (of science).

 

[Brennin Magalus]

I also had a very hands-off supervisor, so I had a lot of freedom to do my own stuff. I get the feeling he was quite happy with this arrangement, as it meant he was also free to get on with his own research (and he does a HECK of a lot of research).

Joe Gani or one of his students?

 

[TerraDave]

Geez.

More and more, I get the feeling I really lucked out on my PhD (ANU, computational statistics)

Yes, you are.

Already have a masters?