D&D General Any Realms-Heads Know About The Politics of The Sword Coast?

Alzrius · Dec 8, 2021

THEMNGMNT said:
Back to the OP, I would look at 3E's Waterdeep: City of Splendors or even the original Waterdeep and the North. Large portions of Waterdeep's nobility are downright evil. Many more are neutral. Few are good. It's right there in the text, indisputable.

So, pulling my copy of City of Splendors: Waterdeep (affiliate link) off the shelf, the section on the nobility of Waterdeep (pg. 59-63) lists the following members of several of the most prominent noble families:

House Adarbrent
Alroy Adarbrent (NG)
Ellis Adarbrent (LG)
Royus Adarbrent (LG)
Syllia Adarbrent (CG)

House Amcathra
Mourngrym Amcathra (NG)
Galinda Raventree Amcathra (CG)
Regnet Amcathra (NG)

House Moonstar
Alathene Moonstar (CG)
Feluna Moonstar (NG)
Helve Moonstar (NG)
Vanrak Moonstar (NE)
Wylynd Moonstar (CG)

House Thann
Cassandra Thann (NG)
Danilo Thann (CG)
Erktos Thann II (LG)
Rhammas Thann (LN)
Zelphar Thann (LN)

House Wands
Maskar Wands (LN)
Olanhar Wands (LG)
Scirkhel Wands (CG)

So out of twenty nobles, sixteen are good, three are neutral, and only one is evil.

Eltab · Dec 9, 2021

Alzrius said:
So, pulling my copy of City of Splendors: Waterdeep (affiliate link) off the shelf, the section on the nobility of Waterdeep (pg. 59-63) lists the following members of several of the most prominent noble families:

House Adarbrent
Alroy Adarbrent (NG)
Ellis Adarbrent (LG)
Royus Adarbrent (LG)
Syllia Adarbrent (CG)

House Amcathra
Mourngrym Amcathra (NG)
Galinda Raventree Amcathra (CG)
Regnet Amcathra (NG)

House Moonstar
Alathene Moonstar (CG)
Feluna Moonstar (NG)
Helve Moonstar (NG)
Vanrak Moonstar (NE)
Wylynd Moonstar (CG)

House Thann
Cassandra Thann (NG)
Danilo Thann (CG)
Erktos Thann II (LG)
Rhammas Thann (LN)
Zelphar Thann (LN)

House Wands
Maskar Wands (LN)
Olanhar Wands (LG)
Scirkhel Wands (CG)

So out of twenty nobles, sixteen are good, three are neutral, and only one is evil.

I'd have to get City of Splendors from the Public Library to look, and it's been a while since last I did (so take this with a grain of salt):

There are 70 noble houses in Waterdeep, most of which are not listed?
The 5 you list are presented as the ones a PC could be approached offering quiet help to right a wrong?
That leaves about 65 houses that could be up to something noxious and objectionable.

The Cassalanters in Dragon Heist are a clearly evil house but do not proclaim their evil to the world. Other neutral-to-evil houses may not realize the value of discretion.

THEMNGMNT · Dec 9, 2021

You know, I don't have my copies of either book handy, but I remember being somewhat shocked at the number of evil nobles and authority figures in Waterdeep. There's a lot of skullduggery and shadiness. My concept of the city is that it's a bastion of civilization in the North, but distinctly includes both its best and worst parts.

Alzrius · Dec 9, 2021

Eltab said:
I'd have to get City of Splendors from the Public Library to look, and it's been a while since last I did (so take this with a grain of salt):

There are 70 noble houses in Waterdeep, most of which are not listed?
The 5 you list are presented as the ones a PC could be approached offering quiet help to right a wrong?
That leaves about 65 houses that could be up to something noxious and objectionable.

The Cassalanters in Dragon Heist are a clearly evil house but do not proclaim their evil to the world. Other neutral-to-evil houses may not realize the value of discretion.

So apparently, the 3.5 City of Splendors: Waterdeep book had a web enhancement, one titled, wait for it...Noble Houses of Waterdeep. It lists every noble family in the city, along with a decent amount of salient information, including the predominant alignments.

Now, that's a little awkward, because in many cases this notes quite a few different alignments, many of them quite disparate. Still, if we look at which ones are listed the most (along the good/evil axis), we can get a sense of their overall general disposition (if there's an even split between neutrality and a single other alignment, I've presumed they'll lean at least somewhat toward the latter). The list is as follows:

Adarbrent (LG, NG, CG) - Good
Agundar (CN) - Neutral
Amcathra (LG, NG, CG) - Good
Ammakyl (NG) - Good
Anteos (LN, LE) - Evil
Artemel (CN, N, NE, CE) - Evil
Assumbar (LG, LN) - Good
Belabranta (NG, N) - Good
Bladesemmer (CG, NG, CN) - Good
Brokengulf (CN, N, LN, LG, NE) - Neutral
Brossfeather (N, NG) - Good
Cassalanter (CG, NG, CN, N) - Good
Cragsmere (CG, CN) - Good
Crommor (CG, NG) - Good
Dezlentyr (LN, CG) - Good
Durinbold (CN, N) - Neutral
Eagleshield (CN, CG) - Good
Eirontalar (CG, NG, CN, NE) - Good
Eltorchul (LN, CG, LG, NG, CE) - Good
Emveolstone (LN, N) - Neutral
Estelmer (NG, N) - Good
Gauntyl (LN, LE) - Evil
Gost (NG, CG) - Good
Gralhund (LN, LE) - Evil
Gundwynd (LG) - Good
Hawkwinter (NG, CG, LG) - Good
Helmfast (CG, NG, CN) - Good
Hiilgauntlet (N, CN) - Neutral
Hothemer (CG, CN) - Good
Hunabar (LG, N, CE) - Neutral
Husteem (LN, LE, N, NE) - Evil
Ilitul (N, LN) - Neutral
Ilvastarr (N, CN) - Neutral
Ilzimmer (CE, NE, N, CE, CN) - Evil
Irlingstar (CG, CN, CE) - Neutral
Jardeth (LN) - Neutral
Jhansczil (LN, N CN) - Neutral
Kormallis (LN, LG) - Good
Kothont (LN, LE) - Evil
Lanngolyn (N, CN) - Neutral
Lathkule (N) - Neutral
Maerklos (LG, LN, LE) - Neutral
Majarra (NG, CG, LN) - Good
Manthar (LN, N) - Neutral
Margaster (CN, CG) - Good
Massalan (NE, N) - Evil
Melshimber (NE, LE, N, LN, LG) - Evil
Moonstar (CG) - Good (it notes that the Vanrak lineage specifically is CE, but according to what's in the full book, that lineage is largely out of power now)
Nandar (CN, CE) - Evil
Nesher (CG, CN, CE) - Neutral
Phull (CG, CN) - Good
Phylund (LN, NG, NE) - Neutral
Piiradost (LN, N, CN) - Neutral
Raventree (NG, N, CG) - Good
Roaringhorn (NG, CG, N, CN) - Good
Rosznar (CE, CN, NE, LE) - Evil
Ruldegost (LN, N) - Neutral
Silmerhelve (LN, LG) - Good
Snome (LG, NG, LN) - Good
Stormweather (CN, N, CE) - Neutral
Sultlue (CE, NE, CN) - Evil
Talmost (LN, N, NE) - Neutral
Tarm (NG, CG, CN) - Good
Tchazzam (NG, CG) - Good
Tesper (LG, NG, CG) - Good
Thann (NG, LN, LG, CG) - Good
Thongolir (NG) - Good
Thorp (LN, N) - Neutral
Thunderstaff (LG, NG, N) - Good
Ulbrinter (N) - Neutral
Urmbrusk (LN, N, LE) - Neutral
Wands (NG, LG, CG, LN, N, CN) - Good
Wavesilver (CG, NG, CN) - Good
Zulpair (CN, CE) - Evil
Zun (CN, N, CE, NE) - Evil

So breaking that down, we have the following distribution:

Good: 37 houses.
Neutral: 24 houses.
Evil: 14 houses.

In other words, nobles houses with a predominantly good alignment make up almost half of Waterdeep's nobility, those which are neutral are just shy of one-third, and those of a decidedly evil bent are a tad bit over one-sixth.

THEMNGMNT · Dec 9, 2021

That's great info.

Tales and Chronicles · Dec 9, 2021

Alzrius said:
So apparently, the 3.5 City of Splendors: Waterdeep book had a web enhancement, one titled, wait for it...Noble Houses of Waterdeep. It lists every noble family in the city, along with a decent amount of salient information, including the predominant alignments.

Now, that's a little awkward, because in many cases this notes quite a few different alignments, many of them quite disparate. Still, if we look at which ones are listed the most (along the good/evil axis), we can get a sense of their overall general disposition (if there's an even split between neutrality and a single other alignment, I've presumed they'll lean at least somewhat toward the latter). The list is as follows:

Adarbrent (LG, NG, CG) - Good

Agundar (CN) - Neutral

Amcathra (LG, NG, CG) - Good

Ammakyl (NG) - Good

Anteos (LN, LE) - Evil

Artemel (CN, N, NE, CE) - Evil

Assumbar (LG, LN) - Good

Belabranta (NG, N) - Good

Bladesemmer (CG, NG, CN) - Good

Brokengulf (CN, N, LN, LG, NE) - Neutral

Brossfeather (N, NG) - Good

Cassalanter (CG, NG, CN, N) - Good

Cragsmere (CG, CN) - Good

Crommor (CG, NG) - Good

Dezlentyr (LN, CG) - Good

Durinbold (CN, N) - Neutral

Eagleshield (CN, CG) - Good

Eirontalar (CG, NG, CN, NE) - Good

Eltorchul (LN, CG, LG, NG, CE) - Good

Emveolstone (LN, N) - Neutral

Estelmer (NG, N) - Good

Gauntyl (LN, LE) - Evil

Gost (NG, CG) - Good

Gralhund (LN, LE) - Evil

Gundwynd (LG) - Good

Hawkwinter (NG, CG, LG) - Good

Helmfast (CG, NG, CN) - Good

Hiilgauntlet (N, CN) - Neutral

Hothemer (CG, CN) - Good

Hunabar (LG, N, CE) - Neutral

Husteem (LN, LE, N, NE) - Evil

Ilitul (N, LN) - Neutral

Ilvastarr (N, CN) - Neutral

Ilzimmer (CE, NE, N, CE, CN) - Evil

Irlingstar (CG, CN, CE) - Neutral

Jardeth (LN) - Neutral

Jhansczil (LN, N CN) - Neutral

Kormallis (LN, LG) - Good

Kothont (LN, LE) - Evil

Lanngolyn (N, CN) - Neutral

Lathkule (N) - Neutral

Maerklos (LG, LN, LE) - Neutral

Majarra (NG, CG, LN) - Good

Manthar (LN, N) - Neutral

Margaster (CN, CG) - Good

Massalan (NE, N) - Evil

Melshimber (NE, LE, N, LN, LG) - Evil

Moonstar (CG) - Good (it notes that the Vanrak lineage specifically is CE, but according to what's in the full book, that lineage is largely out of power now)

Nandar (CN, CE) - Evil

Nesher (CG, CN, CE) - Neutral

Phull (CG, CN) - Good

Phylund (LN, NG, NE) - Neutral

Piiradost (LN, N, CN) - Neutral

Raventree (NG, N, CG) - Good

Roaringhorn (NG, CG, N, CN) - Good

Rosznar (CE, CN, NE, LE) - Evil

Ruldegost (LN, N) - Neutral

Silmerhelve (LN, LG) - Good

Snome (LG, NG, LN) - Good

Stormweather (CN, N, CE) - Neutral

Sultlue (CE, NE, CN) - Evil

Talmost (LN, N, NE) - Neutral

Tarm (NG, CG, CN) - Good

Tchazzam (NG, CG) - Good

Tesper (LG, NG, CG) - Good

Thann (NG, LN, LG, CG) - Good

Thongolir (NG) - Good

Thorp (LN, N) - Neutral

Thunderstaff (LG, NG, N) - Good

Ulbrinter (N) - Neutral

Urmbrusk (LN, N, LE) - Neutral

Wands (NG, LG, CG, LN, N, CN) - Good

Wavesilver (CG, NG, CN) - Good

Zulpair (CN, CE) - Evil

Zun (CN, N, CE, NE) - Evil

So breaking that down, we have the following distribution:

Good: 37 houses.
Neutral: 24 houses.
Evil: 14 houses.

In other words, nobles houses with a predominantly good alignment make up almost half of Waterdeep's nobility, those which are neutral are just shy of one-third, and those of a decidedly evil bent are a tad bit over one-sixth.

Arent the Cassalanters pretty much an evil family in Dragon Heist?

oh, and there's the aerial hunting noble aficionados from Waterdeep's griffon cavalry that have been infiltrated by the Cult of Elemental Evil.

Eltab · Dec 10, 2021

Alzrius said:
So apparently, the 3.5 City of Splendors: Waterdeep book had a web enhancement, one titled, wait for it...Noble Houses of Waterdeep. It lists every noble family in the city, along with a decent amount of salient information, including the predominant alignments.

Now, that's a little awkward, because in many cases this notes quite a few different alignments, many of them quite disparate. Still, if we look at which ones are listed the most (along the good/evil axis), we can get a sense of their overall general disposition (if there's an even split between neutrality and a single other alignment, I've presumed they'll lean at least somewhat toward the latter). The list is as follows:

Adarbrent (LG, NG, CG) - Good

Agundar (CN) - Neutral

Amcathra (LG, NG, CG) - Good

Ammakyl (NG) - Good

Anteos (LN, LE) - Evil

Artemel (CN, N, NE, CE) - Evil

Assumbar (LG, LN) - Good

Belabranta (NG, N) - Good

Bladesemmer (CG, NG, CN) - Good

Brokengulf (CN, N, LN, LG, NE) - Neutral

Brossfeather (N, NG) - Good

Cassalanter (CG, NG, CN, N) - Good

Cragsmere (CG, CN) - Good

Crommor (CG, NG) - Good

Dezlentyr (LN, CG) - Good

Durinbold (CN, N) - Neutral

Eagleshield (CN, CG) - Good

Eirontalar (CG, NG, CN, NE) - Good

Eltorchul (LN, CG, LG, NG, CE) - Good

Emveolstone (LN, N) - Neutral

Estelmer (NG, N) - Good

Gauntyl (LN, LE) - Evil

Gost (NG, CG) - Good

Gralhund (LN, LE) - Evil

Gundwynd (LG) - Good

Hawkwinter (NG, CG, LG) - Good

Helmfast (CG, NG, CN) - Good

Hiilgauntlet (N, CN) - Neutral

Hothemer (CG, CN) - Good

Hunabar (LG, N, CE) - Neutral

Husteem (LN, LE, N, NE) - Evil

Ilitul (N, LN) - Neutral

Ilvastarr (N, CN) - Neutral

Ilzimmer (CE, NE, N, CE, CN) - Evil

Irlingstar (CG, CN, CE) - Neutral

Jardeth (LN) - Neutral

Jhansczil (LN, N CN) - Neutral

Kormallis (LN, LG) - Good

Kothont (LN, LE) - Evil

Lanngolyn (N, CN) - Neutral

Lathkule (N) - Neutral

Maerklos (LG, LN, LE) - Neutral

Majarra (NG, CG, LN) - Good

Manthar (LN, N) - Neutral

Margaster (CN, CG) - Good

Massalan (NE, N) - Evil

Melshimber (NE, LE, N, LN, LG) - Evil

Moonstar (CG) - Good (it notes that the Vanrak lineage specifically is CE, but according to what's in the full book, that lineage is largely out of power now)

Nandar (CN, CE) - Evil

Nesher (CG, CN, CE) - Neutral

Phull (CG, CN) - Good

Phylund (LN, NG, NE) - Neutral

Piiradost (LN, N, CN) - Neutral

Raventree (NG, N, CG) - Good

Roaringhorn (NG, CG, N, CN) - Good

Rosznar (CE, CN, NE, LE) - Evil

Ruldegost (LN, N) - Neutral

Silmerhelve (LN, LG) - Good

Snome (LG, NG, LN) - Good

Stormweather (CN, N, CE) - Neutral

Sultlue (CE, NE, CN) - Evil

Talmost (LN, N, NE) - Neutral

Tarm (NG, CG, CN) - Good

Tchazzam (NG, CG) - Good

Tesper (LG, NG, CG) - Good

Thann (NG, LN, LG, CG) - Good

Thongolir (NG) - Good

Thorp (LN, N) - Neutral

Thunderstaff (LG, NG, N) - Good

Ulbrinter (N) - Neutral

Urmbrusk (LN, N, LE) - Neutral

Wands (NG, LG, CG, LN, N, CN) - Good

Wavesilver (CG, NG, CN) - Good

Zulpair (CN, CE) - Evil

Zun (CN, N, CE, NE) - Evil

So breaking that down, we have the following distribution:

Good: 37 houses.
Neutral: 24 houses.
Evil: 14 houses.

In other words, nobles houses with a predominantly good alignment make up almost half of Waterdeep's nobility, those which are neutral are just shy of one-third, and those of a decidedly evil bent are a tad bit over one-sixth.

i had not heard of that supplement until now. Interesting !

Eltab · Dec 10, 2021

vincegetorix said:
Arent the Cassalanters pretty much an evil family in Dragon Heist?

oh, and there's the aerial hunting noble aficionados from Waterdeep's griffon cavalry that have been infiltrated by the Cult of Elemental Evil.

There are several generations' worth of time between the in-world "publishing dates" of City of Splendors and Dragon Heist.
So WotC can mix-and-match.

doctorbadwolf · Dec 10, 2021

"Let us suppose, then, that we could provide proof that the majority of these masked lords are goodly folk, like you or I. What then? Shall we return to our homes and smile to our families, safe in the knowledge that only some of the people who rule over us make deals with devils and worse, Zhents?

Of course not! If you know that your neighbor is a killer, and you do nothing, shall we throw you a parade because you are not a killer?

Of course not! Neverember let the criminals and those owned by criminals into the city's government, but that government had no recourse to stop him! And now, how long as The Good Lady ruled, and how many masked lords have been removed? None! If the scion of a noble house abuses you, what recourse do you have? None! Our sweat and blood rebuilds this city every time it is shaken by calamity, and what voice do we have in our city's governance? None!"

-excerpt from one of Kid's wordier articles published in a sympathetic paper under a nom de plum.

But seriously, the masked lords could be 98% Good (unlikely in the extreme but hey maybe magic is at work) and the institution itself would still be absolutely bonkers, and every lord of Waterdeep is partly responsible for it's shortcomings.