Anybody else not satisifed with domains in their current incarnation?

[Eternalknight]

One problem with not playing a cleric as a healer is that the party can really suffer because then there's a realy healing hole. Which maybe, more than the domain issue the problem with clerics. the Designers have decided that healing can only be done by clerics as such there is this major activity which has to be done by one character, unlike fighting spell casting, the only similar issues is locks and such. They've gone a long way towards rectifying this with spontaneous casting, but I think to truly free the cleric you would have to make healing much more common and spread it out some.

Bards, druids and paladins all have access to healing. My group have sucessfully played without clerics many times, without the aid of potions or other healing items. They just have to be much more careful. Clerics are certainly not essential to the survial of a party.

 

[The Serge]

Well, I agree with the similarity of Clerics now. However, I think this change was made in response to the fact that some specialty Priests were clearly better than others, particularly among those in FR. The decision was for balance.

Keep in mind, though, that a cleric of the god of Peace casting a Blade Barrier really is up to the DM. It's a defensive techique that can harm if the aggressor does not cease and dissist (sp) hostilities...

I too have created PrCs for some of my Priests. If you'd like to see an example of one, go here:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19557

 

[Felix]

I like that idea of having opposition domains. I sat down with the domains in the PHB and saw what I could find.

Air........................Earth, Fire
Animal..................?
Chaos....................Law
Death....................Healing
Destruction............Protection, Good, Knowledge
Earth.....................Air, Water
Evil........................Good, Sun
Fire........................Air, Water
Good.....................Evil, Destruction
Healing..................Death, Evil
Knowledge............Strength, Destruction
Law........................Chaos, Luck, Trickery
Luck.......................Law
Magic.....................?
Plant......................?
Protection..............War, Destruction
Strength.................Knowledge
Sun........................Evil
Travel.....................?
Trickery...................Law
War........................Protection
Water.....................Fire, Earth

I didn't check to see if some god has two domains marked here as opposition, but I don't think it needs much work to create an opposition domain line-up. Plant, Animal, and Travel are a little tricky; perhaps the domain Stationary needs to be created. Spells like Planar Binding, Hold Person, Color Spray, etc.

 

[Spatzimaus]

You asked for it. Here's what we came up with.

NOTE: THIS IS NOT BALANCED. I mean, it's balanced in our campaign, which includes a LOT of other changes.

It's similar to what Crothian and Saeviomagy said above. Instead of receiving an extra spell per level for domain spells, the Cleric can swap any spell for one of his two Domain spells. So, if you want to swap for heals, better take the Healing domain.

It never made much sense that Cleric = Healer; a priest of a Fire god should be about Fire, not healing with one Fireball per day. It was worst for neutral priests, whose gods have nothing to do with the Good/Evil split. A primitive Shaman might just be Cleric of Fire and War, with a few levels of Fighter thrown in. Not much healing power, just a different kind of spellcaster, but under the old rules he'd still mainly end up as a healer (if he wasn't evil).
The thing is, this is a big jump in power. A Cleric of Fire/Destruction/Death/etc. has the same damage spells as a Wizard, and has more defensive spells (but less choice in offense). Any good Cleric who chooses Healing as one of his Domains is better off than before.

Other changes we use:
> No metamagic on swapped spells (this gives Sorcerers back their metamagic advantage)
> You can't use Domain spells to satisfy spell prerequisites on item creation (which is more of a slow bleed-off of energy than a normal casting)
> a new Feat, Domain Preparation, that allows Clerics to put their Domain spells in the normal spell slots, for metamagic purposes and such. It also lets you use the spells for item creation.
> Positive-energy (Heal, Cure) spells are inherently Good, Negative (Harm, Inflict) spells are inherently Evil.
> HOWEVER, Domain spells aren't subject to the alignment restrictions. If your evil Cleric takes the Healing domain he can still swap for those spells just fine, he just can't put them in his normal spell slots. (Note: not many evil gods will have Healing as a domain)

There are some other balancing points. For example, all classes now have to deal with Somatic Failure (was Arcane Failure) in one way or another, although the divine classes have other ways around it.

 

[RaZZer99]

This thread is a god send I too dislike the cleric as is cause they are all so much the same. Hereis what I was planning on doing...

1. reduce the cleric's class skills to concentration, craft, profession, and knowledge(religion)
2. each god has its own list of 3 skills which are then added to the cleric's class skills list (i.e. god of lies give bluff, disguise, and maybe sense motive)
3. get rid of turn undead for clerics (this will now be a domain power)
4. revise the cleric spell list by slimming it down to the more generic spells that you can reasonably assume all clerics would have
5. revise and make news domains where each domain now grants a power much like turn undead thats based on level and charisma.
6. clerics get two domains to choose from at start but also recieve additional domains at higher levels

 

[fuindordm]

The cleric is way overpowered, but my main problem with domains is that they raped the sorcerer/wizard spell list to fill them up with high-level spells.

Here's what I would be inclined to do to "fix" clerics:

* Either make spell failure apply to clerics, or remove it from arcane casters. A gesture is a gesture, after all, and a spell with somatic components requires "one arm able to gesture freely". Do we really think that the gods are watching over the cleric's shoulder, and if they screw up a gesture slightly due to their full plate mail, the god goes "Oh, that's OK. I know what he meant!" Sheesh. You're not going to see wizards running around in armor all the time anyway--they would need to invest a good stat in strength to wear anything better than the Mage Armor spell, and spend feats to learn armor use. If they get around these restrictions by multiclassing, they're losing out anyway by falling behind in the spell levels.

* Fix some of the domains to better reflect their theme, inventing new spells if necessary with a more priestly feel to replace the wizard spells. A warpriest, for example, should have spells which affect large numbers of troops at high level--not power words.

* Associate each deity with one or more Divine Mandates that restrict the character's role-playing options. After all, that's the supposed justification for clerics being overpowered--that they're not free agents. The "dogma" sections of Faiths and Pantheons are just watered-down philosophies, not at all restrictive. What are the deity's goals? The cleric should be pursuing them night and day.

OK, that was a nice little rant. I feel better now! Now that that's off my chest, the ideas being bandied about here are all very good. I especially like the idea of replacing "Turn Undead" with other appropriate powers for each domain. A lot of them (alignment and elemental domains) will still be turning/commanding based, but I'd like to see the cool alternatives posted here.

--Ben

 

[Chacal]

I like that idea of having opposition domains.

I'm glad you like it.

I sat down with the domains in the PHB and saw what I could find.

<snip big list>

I didn't check to see if some god has two domains marked here as opposition, but I don't think it needs much work to create an opposition domain line-up. Plant, Animal, and Travel are a little tricky; perhaps the domain Stationary needs to be created. Spells like Planar Binding, Hold Person, Color Spray, etc.

Nice job !
It would work pretty well for clerics without gods (an option I don't use IMC) and could be used as a good guideline for each divinity opposition domains.


While looking at your list, I realised that some opposition are pantheon-specific, or divinity-specific. (Evil and sun for instance)

I will add the opposition domains to each god. If one god has two domains that are opposed in your list, well they're just not opposites in his view of the world, and he can have some other opposition domains.


Thanks


Chacal

 

[Azure Trance]

Bards, druids and paladins all have access to healing. My group have sucessfully played without clerics many times, without the aid of potions or other healing items. They just have to be much more careful. Clerics are certainly not essential to the survial of a party.

Rangers have access to healing spells too.

(It's errated.)

 

[Vaxalon]

.... I have noticed over the last two years that all clerics are pretty much alike in their abilities, barring two domains and their powers. ....

And their feats, and their skills, and their attributes...

 

[EarthsShadow]

nice thread

I am glad that someone started this thread, because it makes so much sense. I like the idea of spontaneously casting whatever domain spell they want of that level.

Another idea I had, and this would take some work if someone wanted a campaign like this, is that all the cleric's spells come from his or her domains and that is it. No general clerics spell list. Pick 5 or 6 domains and that's all you get. Or, expand the God's domain's lists up to 8 each and still the cleric has less overall spells than he normally would. If this was done, you would have to change how Domain special abilities worked, but it would be done. Especially if this was somehow combined with the Priest class listed above, which is a really cool class.

Basically, this would mean that each God would have their own spell's list, and once you picked the God, you can't get any more spells except what your specific God will allow you to get.

any thoughts?