Anyone else bothered by low poison DC's?

[Interested2]

I've been playing a while now, and am on the verge of starting my own campaign. One thing thats been bugging me (pardon the pun) for some time now is the very low DC's of poisons in the game, especially plant poisons and insect poisons. Plants have poisons mainly to protect them from pests and animals that eat them. Such a poison isn't very evolutionarily sound if it does absolutly nothing to half the animals that eat it. On the other hand, if it causes death in anything that eats it around 75%-95% of the time, then it is very evolutionarily sound and probably won't have much eating it after a few generations. Thus it makes sense for plants to evolve poisons that work. Lets look at a typical poison in D&D (and in the real world).

Arsenic, Ingested DC 13, 1 Con, 1d8 Con

I'll quote from the Agency of Toxic Substances and Disease Registry.

Breathing high levels of inorganic arsenic can give you a sore throat or irritated lungs. Ingesting high levels of inorganic arsenic can result in death. Lower levels of arsenic can cause nausea and vomiting, decreased production of red and white blood cells, abnormal heart rhythm, damage to blood vessels, and a sensation of "pins and needles" in hands and feet.

Based on this, I would say that arsenic should be Inhaled DC 18, 1 Con primary, 1 Con secondary. It should also be Ingested DC 24, 1d6 Str primary, 2d6 Con secondary, failure by 5 more more causing death.

Poisons in D&D are far too weak. One dose ingame has to be enough to cause death a fair amount of the time, otherwise it would not be considered a dose. A A 5th level fighter will save against arsenic if he rolls a 9 or higher as it currently is, and arsenic is a nasty substance. In addition, this is assuming that the fighter has nothing boosting his Fort save. A 9th level unaugmented fighter has a fort save of +6. My 9th level Wizard, with various enhancements (and no spells running) has a fort save of +13. He will always save against arsenic. That doesn't seem right to me. In a world where the animals are more dangerous, where dragons roam the lands, and where parties of adventurers hack their way through jungles in search of treasure, the evolutionary pressure is on for plants and animals to survive. They must develop more toxic poisons in response to a hostile environment. Those that do not will die out, eaten or crushed to death. The ready availibility of the neutralize poison spell and extraordinary poison immunity makes poison even less effective, prompting even deadlier poisons. A brush against a poisonous plant in the jungle going to a temple shouldn't be a matter of an easy to make fort save. It should be a stop-and-heal game event, where the party must tend to their comrade or he may die. Poisons are nasty in the real world, but in D&D, they're just another easy to make roll. Even if someone doesn't make the roll, neutralize poison, or items such as 'Peripat of Proof against Poison' make 'normal' poisons generally ineffective.

In my campaign, there is no neutralize poison spell. The DC's of all poisons are raised by 5. And being poisoned is a major, life threatening event, not a simple thing to brush off. Any else here agree with me about poisons in D&D?

 

[Mouseferatu]

Actually, I disagree, at least when it comes to the vermin.

Have you ever actually run a fight with giant vermin in D&D? Especially the really big ones? Experience tells me that the save DCs are high enough that many characters are almost never going to successfully save against them.

Of course, that could be a problem unique to the larger varieties of vermin. I'll admit to not having used lower-grade poisons all that often.

May I suggest an alternate solution? Rather than bumping up the save DC, why not just make the save for half, instead of to negate the whole thing? That way, people will still suffer something, but they won't feel they're being cheated with DCs too high to reasonably make.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I miss save or die poison.

 

[Leviticus]

I miss save or die poison.

Me too! I am playing a Rogue/Assassin and I have just started to get into poison. I find the average poison way to weak, I want Über poison for my hand crossbow that kills on a failed save.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

May I suggest an alternate solution? Rather than bumping up the save DC, why not just make the save for half, instead of to negate the whole thing? That way, people will still suffer something, but they won't feel they're being cheated with DCs too high to reasonably make.

I think save for half is a good idea. It also allows poison immunities to be replaced with evasion like abilities to save for full damage and then take half even on a failed save.

However, I agree with the orriginal poster about the low saves on some poisons, espcially ingested poisons and paralytic/unconsiousness poisons. Unless you spent the last 5 years building up an imunity to Iocaine, it kills you, no questions asked. I also think that some poisons should have cascading saves. ie, additional "doses" within one hour add cumulative +2 (or more) bonuses to the DC.

One nitpick to the orriginal post, BTW. A plant that flat out killed an overwhelming majority of those that ate it might not have as high a success rate as one that killed some and made all the others hideously ill for hours. I'd like to see more poisons that incapacitate, but with a higher save.

Kahuna Burger

 

[Mercule]

In theory, I agree that the DCs are too low. At least I used to. Then I started using critters with poison and disease. In practice, the DCs are just fine.

 

[RangerWickett]

The poisons as written don't work, either logically, or from the standpoint of mechanical balance.

Poison should be a little more complicated, I think. Each dose of a poison has a 'max damage' and a 'damage interval.' Let's say, for example, that rattlesnake venom has a max damage of 6 Con, and a damage interval of one minute (rattlesnake venom isn't that fast-acting).

If you're bit by a rattler, every minute you make a Fort save, or else you take 1 point of Con damage. You keep making Fort saves until you receive antivenom, you take the max damage, or a day passes. Normally, small critters will die within a few minutes, because they have low Constitutions (or at least they ought to; instead of having 1/4 hit dice, a field mouse should just have a Con of 4). A person could survive several bites and have a few minutes to find help, but if he doesn't find help, you cannot ignore poison. It will work its course, if given enough time.

 

[kalthak]

Something to look at when evaluating posions is the LD50 (lethal dose for 50% of subjects). For instance the LD50 (contact) for sarin is 1700mg for a 70kg man. VX is 10mg for the same 70kg man. Arsenic (oral) is about 15mg/kg or somewhere in between.

I agree that poisons don't seem as scary as they should be, but I think the problem is more on the damage side. If an average D&D human has a 10 con, dc13 is something like a 40% save chance, but there is no chance of death. The max damage you could take is 9 con, you'll be incapacitated, but not dead.

Maybe make the first damage mandatory, and only allow a save for the secondary. And if you bump up the primary damage a bit your poison is much more lethal, since a lower con makes it harder to save. Nobody should be able to shrug off something like vx or sarin, even if you don't die, you'll probably wish you had.

--k


edit: another thought about damage

 

[Lamoni]

In theory, I agree that the DCs are too low. At least I used to. Then I started using critters with poison and disease. In practice, the DCs are just fine.

I agree. You should also remember that even the high-level Dwarf Paladin with a +24 vs. poison will still fail 5% of the time against the lowest level poison. Another thing. To my knowledge, most poison found in nature (at least in animals) is used for killing their prey and not to kill whoever eats them. Therefore most poison is very effective against the animal's typical prey, but not that harmful to an adult human. Even scorpions and black widows don't pose much of a threat to adults... but they can kill babies and small children. I still wouldn't recommend being bitten from a black widow though, the save DC for one of those is a 19 and it does 1D6 Con damage and 10D6 of subdual pain and suffering damage on a failed save.

Regarding plants, I don't know as much, but it seems like the DC should probably be higher than animal venom. Of course, if you eat a poisonous plant, you are ingesting probably more than 10,000 times the volume as you would receive from an animal bite.

 

[Chroma]

Sean K. Reynolds presented some interesting variant rules for poisons, I recommend checking them out!

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/variantcontinuingpoison.html