D&D 5E Anyone else finding character advancement pretty dull?

[delericho]

If they had no requirements other than level, why not? The most onerous part of Prestige Classes was the requirement to build towards them, removing that would make the concept much more workable.

My main issue is that they became a lazy way for the designers to generate content - we ended up with book after book of dross.

It's also worth noting that multiclassing seems to be one of the bigger sources of imbalance in the game, and adding Prestige Classes to that compounds the problem - balancing a Great Samurai subclass for the Fighter is rather easier than balancing a Great Samurai prestige class that could be entered from Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, or any combination of the above.

Edit to add: There's also the consideration that multiclassing is an optional rule. The more material they publish that hangs off that, the harder it becomes to resist - you're up against players who have potentially paid a lot of money for their books and want to use them. (See also the Proficiency rules in 2nd Edition, which were marked as optional but became much less so as the edition went on.)

(For much the same reason, I would rather not see a very large number of Feats being published. Though as I'm more likely to use Feats than multiclassing, I'm less opposed to them becoming common. I don't claim to be entirely selfless in my thinking. )

 

[Jester David]

It's duller than 3e or 4e for sure. But significantly less dull than Basic or 1e/2e. 5th Edition really focused on the fun at the table, rather than the lonely fun of character optimisation away from the table. It's less fun to sit around and level one's character, but that has zero impact on how the game plays on game day.

5e returns somewhat to the Gygaxian design of characters being defined and devloped by play rather than by their mechanics. Heck, one of the 5e designers commented that there were still likely too many choices and build opportunities for Gygax to enjoy something like 5e.

The solution is to focus more on the character's goals. Develop them more beyond the constraints of the rules. Consider their goals and future plans in the story.

 

[Treantmonklvl20]

If you were a redbox player, then you remember gaining a level when it was, "Roll a d6. 3. OK, add 3 to your HP. Alright, level up done!"

3.5 had an issue with "dead levels", where you would also gain a level, and nothing but HP.

I find 5e very engaging for level-up. I have yet to gain a level in any class when HP was all I received. Now, granted, spellcasting is somewhat restrained from 3.5, but honestly, that was needed.

 

[delericho]

3.5 had an issue with "dead levels", where you would also gain a level, and nothing but HP.

Well, and skill points (and possibly feats and ability score increases).

It's also quite telling that the Design & Development article that first talked about "dead levels" considered the level at which a Wizard got to cast wish as being a dead level.

So while avoiding "dead levels" is generally a good thing, the extent to which they were a problem in 3e was rather over-stated.

 

[TwoSix]

My main issue is that they became a lazy way for the designers to generate content - we ended up with book after book of dross.

It's also worth noting that multiclassing seems to be one of the bigger sources of imbalance in the game, and adding Prestige Classes to that compounds the problem - balancing a Great Samurai subclass for the Fighter is rather easier than balancing a Great Samurai prestige class that could be entered from Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, or any combination of the above.

Edit to add: There's also the consideration that multiclassing is an optional rule. The more material they publish that hangs off that, the harder it becomes to resist - you're up against players who have potentially paid a lot of money for their books and want to use them. (See also the Proficiency rules in 2nd Edition, which were marked as optional but became much less so as the edition went on.)

(For much the same reason, I would rather not see a very large number of Feats being published. Though as I'm more likely to use Feats than multiclassing, I'm less opposed to them becoming common. I don't claim to be entirely selfless in my thinking. )

That's fair, but if you're not a big fan of feats and don't like multiclassing, I would assume customizability in general is less of a priority for you.

 

[delericho]

That's fair, but if you're not a big fan of feats and don't like multiclassing, I would assume customizability in general is less of a priority for you.

There's some truth in that.

What I am a fan of is the concept of modular customization - I very much like the idea that you can trade an ASI for something else (currently, the choice of "something else" is limited to feats, but the first iteration of Dragonmarks treated those as another option). Similarly, the idea of switching out the characters Subrace or Subclass for something else has merit.

But the other thing I like is setting- (or campaign-) specific customization options - if you're playing in Dark Sun (for instance) you get the option of selecting a Wild Talent instead of a subrace, or whatever. This then serves to set apart those settings (or campaigns) from others, without adding lots more customizations that are generally available in an uncontrolled free-for-all.

(And the other other thing I think I might like to see is either more flexible subclasses (where instead of getting a fixed power at a given level you instead get a choice), or alternately the ability to switch your subclass for a more niche variant - a Prestige Subclass, if you will. As you can no doubt see, I haven't worked all the details of that one out, even in concept! )

 

[Sleepy Walker]

I think character development is just about right. It is not an overly arduous task and the options available allow for a relatively quick set of choices. I can then take those choices and craft a wide range of interesting character combinations and roles.

What I find 5e has oversimplified is the rules for consumables, resting, multiple advantage/disadvantage (static modifiers after the first level is viable), HP system and how crazy it can get between levels, arms and armor. There are a lot of areas where WotC could have had crunch and meaningful choice with minimal or non-existent slowdown to play. I can understand why they did not want to do it, release as simple to understand and play game as possible while still retaining the old feel, but that does mean I find parts of the RAW 5e game lesser because of those choices. Often I find myself making or thinking about choices and realizing that the existing rules are just suboptimal. Its like hitting an invisible wall.

Character creation and progression is fine, other parts of the game need a smidge more complexity to make an overall more meaningful game.


*caveat* some characters have segments along their advancement where the ability or reward is not very good. The view that progression is fine right now is assuming that said bumps have been fine-tuned into something more passable.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Its fine for me. Leveling up is something I want to be quick and easy, The DM gives XP, I level, and 5 minutes later we are playing again. Honestly I have no desire to sit around on off nights and plan out a level advancement, much less a 3e-ish 1-20 career path. And with my group 3e style leveling options pretty much meant that game night became a character leveling session, especially as they got higher in level, since outside of one player nobody picks up the books unless we are at the table on wed night.

For me 100% of the fun is in playing the adventure itself, leveling a character or plotting builds is around 0%. So 5e was pretty good for us in that regard. Obviously others mileage varies.

 

[Gradine]

I'll echo what others have said about how character advancement has become streamlined with the handful of choices being meaningful, and how 5e works much better than 3.X in regards to developing characters organically (4th edition too, honestly; where the maths require to specialize and keep specialized or you fall behind quickly, as I learned the hard way with my Taclord multi-classed with Wizard). It's nice feeling like I'm not going to "ruin" my build by putting points in the wrong place, which was the kind of stress I was honestly getting enough of in my life from Diablo II. Granted, making pre-planned 1-20 character builds had a certain kind of enjoyment to them, but it made actual advancement little more than ticking off a box on a checklist.

I'll admit I still somewhat miss skill points; it allowed for interesting choice points at each level, more granularity between skill levels, and made Intelligence actually matter for something. But I'm not necessarily against proficiency either, especially within 5e's bounded accuracy (and not the ludicrously inflated maths of higher-level 4e).

I'll also say that feel like the way Feats were implemented was a missed opportunity in a lot of ways. I love the new design of them, and the way they help to further express a character's unique set of talents, but the way they're shoe-horned in to make them optional also makes them both hard to attain and harder still to justify, given the opportunity costs involved.

 

[Shiroiken]

It depends on what you're looking for.

Are there lots of choices upon leveling up? Not compared to 3E, but more than AD&D and BECMI. It also depends on if Feats and Multi-classing are allowed in your game, as those open a lot more options.

If you're interested in the crunch bits, then it varies by level. Some levels are far more exciting than others. In the simplest form, even levels are kinda boring for full casters, as you're just gaining more spells of levels you already know, whereas on odd levels you get an entire new range of spells. Fifth level is big for warrior characters, getting the extra attack class feature, but it's also fun for the casters to up their cantrip dice.If feats are available, and level where you can get a feat is very exciting if there's one you want (ASI is kinda cool, but not quite as exciting). Getting your sub-class can be an exciting level as well, since those are character defining abilities.