Anyone else long for old days simplicity?

[SableWyvern]

I agree with cildarith, if you want to argue go somewhere else and do it.

There you go again, Mr There Will Be Order in my Thread.

You're not a teacher by any chance?

 

[WSmith]

It may seem I am one of the pro 1e folks, by my posts. So, to clear up, I loved 1e, but I love 3e more. My only hang up is that I wished there is a "basic" version to introduce new players into the fold. I have remadied that by creating my own lite version. So, I am in essence, looking forward.

Now, on to the archtypes: as I said previously this is what I wished WOTC had done with the HBG. Want a pirate? take rogue, with X skills and Y feats, then multiclass into Ftr at Z level. What an eagle-eyed archer, Take human fighter, load up on archery feats, then take a level of sorceror and make one of your spells true strike.

I think that would bring back a level of detail to help with the improv.

Oh, and the weapon focus/wpn spec idea is EXCELLENT!!!

 

[jfiz]

2 issues to tug at here...

I believe that WSmith has just about hit one thing on the head; a Basic, or "light" or more streamlined version of the 3E (d20?) mechanics could be derived to the following effect:

Keep most of the excellent character options, consistent/intuitive mechanics, and other generally accepted improvements posed in 3E. At the same time, reduce the added complexity that 3E has introduced, to try and migrate the system towards a middle ground where DM's who enjoyed the benefits of winging some mechanics to speed game play, as well as to ease the burden of looking up rules etc. (i.e. mostly the 1E crowd)...which would allow more effort to go towards detail and richness of description etc...in this same middle ground, players would still (hopefully, again this is a thought, a "what if?") enjoy the benefits of the flexibility of expression afforded by the myriad of improvements for character modeling available. Each of the editions of DnD/ADnD has had their strengths and values to various DMs and players. With the consistent mechanic(s) of 3e and the tilt towards a myriad of options and complexities, maybe now we could hone that back to this middle ground, say a D20 light system that would fit the niche between the strenghths of each respective version?

The other thing I think we might enjoy is to further our discussion of statting out archetypes at various levels...*maybe* in a fashion similar to how I've proposed much earlier in the thread...there were a few comments in there about that but I'm afriad they were kind of lost in the larger conversation....

So, does anyone have any notes, ideas, starting points for a middle-ground d20 light? What about a netbook of archetype NPC's or something similar? Maybe we should start 2 new threads for each respectively?

Oh, and btw...for us who are inclined to sit back and wait for these things to be over....I just gotta say it....

'Woohoo!!! Flame WAR!!' hehehe....sorry guys just kidding, I couldn't resist. =)

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I don't comment on streamlining D&D much, mostly because I don't see much need for it. I will point out, though, and I mentioned this earlier, that streamlining the system will mean the combat rules will take some amending and cutting, which will hurt the fighter. A lot of the new combat rules directly influence how fighters are created, because of feats.

A netboof of NPC archetypes is a good idea; I just hope more people jump in to contribute this time.

 

[Lord Vangarel]

SableWyvern, no I'm not a teacher although I did consider it for a while. I'm actually a programmer.

As for a lite version I personally don't see the need for it other than as a way of getting new players involved. I agreed with a discussion on the old boards where a lite version based on say a board game model that could lead players on to full D&D was a good version.

ColonelH, I've started putting together some basic archetypes and will start to post them, probably in a new thread though as this ones getting a bit congested. What is apparent from the early work I've done is that the archetypes are somewhat subjective and so I would encourage everyone to post their ideas even if another archetype already exists.

 

[jfiz]

d20 "light" good points all but...

Ok, ColH...between your notes about the figher/feats and combat system, and wsmith pointing out how AoO's are tied closely with several feats etc....I think I'm finally ready to give up on any sort of D20 light version or whatever you want to call it.

However, I am now pretty much exasperated. I get together frequently with some of the members of my regular DnD group on the spur of the moment/short notice...it just sort of happens...we end up hanging out, and decide we want to play. Usually when this happens, we don't want to play the main campaign, because some of the other members aren't present. What we would like to do is to all get the chance to play different character classes/archetypes at high levels in 1 session/1 shot "stop the dragon" style play just for kicks.

We've already tried creating 20th level 3E characters and jumping in that way, but our time is usually limited to say at most 4 hours in an evening for these impromptu sessions. By the time 4-5 players build 20th level characters, it's already taken so much of that time. Then, because of the great complexity you have in D20 combat etc. with all of the high level options, a single combat takes *way* way way too long and we don't enough time to get through the 1-shot in a single session.

I need a system that a) has a single bonafied core mechanic that remains consistent throughout (like the D20 core mechanic), b) supports a DnD like setting and character style, C) allows for the creation and play of epic, grim, high level, powerful characters and D) has a very fast combat system and that will support winging things where necessary etc.

If anyone has any ideas as to another system (yea I know this is the 3E/D20 forum, but I figure a lot of folks here would have experience with other various systems as well)?? I've given up looking for this myself as everything I've tried as either bogged in combat or just taken way to long to create high level characters in...

Thanks,

 

[Votan]

We've already tried creating 20th level 3E characters and jumping in that way, but our time is usually limited to say at most 4 hours in an evening for these impromptu sessions. By the time 4-5 players build 20th level characters, it's already taken so much of that time. Then, because of the great complexity you have in D20 combat etc. with all of the high level options, a single combat takes *way* way way too long and we don't enough time to get through the 1-shot in a single session.
,

High level combat is a real weakness of 3rd edition and it has not improved over time as an issue. Books and options just make things complex and confusing especially given the amount of recalculation that go into the average battle. The amount of detial in 3.5 buffing and combat is very nice at level 3 where the burden of recalculating is pretty low but it's gotten old at level 17 and isn't as fun as it used to be!

At least I find, as a DM, I get confused too easily by it but that could also be inexperience talking.

 

[shilsen]

Unholy thread necromancy, Batman!

 

[Simplicity]

Awww... That's sweet. You guys created a thread just for me!
Well, you can keep on longing because you can't tie this ENWorld poster down!