Anyone else long for old days simplicity?

[WSmith]

Yes, now serving my number to disagree with Joshua!

Actually I pretty much agree. The "feel" I miss had little to do with the actual game mechanics, well, maybe. What I miss is being able to have a totally "new" player roll up a character in a matter of 15 minutes, with little explanation. You are a thief, these are your skills, or you are a magic-user, these are your spells.

Yes, I think 3e is very simple, especailly for us who have been playing these games for about 20 years. But it is a litttle more complex to introduce to a total RPG virgin than the old basic sets were. Now I think the best way to introduce newbies is to give them a pregenerated character, which isn't bad, but remember that feeling of making your first character?

Otherwise, d20 is a blessing to D&D. Like I said once you get used to the system, and are able to decipher the cryptic passages in the PHB, it is way better than previous editions.

 

[WSmith]

KDLadage,

The generators are great if you don't know quite what you want but how do they fair if you want a 5th level town guard, or the fastest route to a 4th level Order of the Bow Initiate?

I noticed this too. I wanted to created a few NPC classed characters that had the "Profession: Sailor" skill, but had to generate quite a few before I got what I wanted. If I were able to enter in the skill, or feat, it would be much better. I am sure in time the generators will offer much more features.

 

[Lord Vangarel]

Originally posted by Joshua Dyal
If the players know exactly what to expect from a 9th level fighter, and you want to put them up against one, how is that a good thing exactly?

I agree, I think 3E is better in mechanics, and better in range of prestige classes etc, but I have to agree with WSmith, from a DM's perspective in the old days the pc's it was just easier.

As an example, a random encounter with say a knight (11th level fighter) is not easy to do, especially if the party decides to fight the knight. Now if I was as prepared as I should be I'd have a stat block mapped out, but as I'm not I don't. I have to stop the game while I think of all the feats and skills just in case they affect the fight. It would also be nice to make the knight a bit more unique and give him a prestige class, now I have to make sure that all the feats and skills fit the rules. Let's say the encounter wasn't random but I never planned for the party to fight the knight, I've made a few notes about class and level just in case, but one of the party takes exception and fights him. Stop the game while I map him out or wing it. My point is in previous editions (without feats, and prestige classes) I keep most of the info in my head and guess at an average. Now it's not as easy.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I'd say it takes longer to generate a HackMaster character than in 3e. However, if you want "generics" for HackMaster, simply pull out that old 1e Monster Manual and look at the entry for "Men." Or use the 1e Rogue's Gallery. HM is basically the same system as 1e/2e. For PCs, though, HM has a number of other steps and additions that weren't in 1e, making PC creation slower.

Oh, and to KDLadage - while I agree with the usefulness of Jamis' generator - and I like PCGen even more - the problem with the NPC generator is that you can't really get it to generate NPCs that have feats and skills applied in such a way so as to achieve the type of character types that Lord Vangarel is speaking of, like his horse fighter example.

Speaking of which, Monte Carlo was working on a collection of NPCs that would have fit the bill, but I haven't seen him post since before the switch to these boards.

 

[Desdichado]

I haven't found the generators to be a problem with their assignment of feats. It's much simpler to change a feat or two on a generated character than it is to try and wing something on the spot. When I was DMing a few months ago, I'd spend 1/2 and hour or so just generating characters, cramming them onto sheets and printing them off so I had any character I could possibly need in my next session. Very little time or effort, a lot of flexibility (I'd go in a tweak them, not just take them as printed) and I had everything I needed.

WSmith: I agree, from the point of view of teaching someone the game, it's a bit steep. Then again, I never thought the first D&D was very good from that perspective, either, though.

 

[Psion]

This may be a silly question, but as a DM who has to create literally zillons of levelled npcs does anyone else long for previous editions simplicity.

No. Because they weren't really all that simple, IME. Sure, stat blocks were brief, but the reason is that they lacked much of the relevant information. A decked out stat block tells you not only what the character needs to hit a person in plate armor, but also more important things like their chances of hiding or noticing someting that was hidden. Further, the ommitted details often required you to flip through books to find things like proficiency modifiers, etc.

In the 1st edition (and 2nd before all the Complete Handbooks) you knew what you where getting with say a 9th level fighter, or for that matter a whatever level anything. With the 3rd edition a 9th level fighter will have at least 9 feats (10 if human). All this takes time . . .

Not really. KDLadage has shown one solution. But using the 3e system, it is really easy to make up stats on the fly. Here, I'll do one right now, no book.

Lesee, 9th level fighter
BAB +9. Assume his stregnth, dex, and con are 14 and everything else 10, and he has a +2 sword. So his attacks are +13/+8, damage 1-8+4.
AC: Assume +2 chain and +2 shield, total AC = 10 +2+5+2+2+2 = 23.
Skills. His best skill will be 12, and he has 24 skill points. Assume he has jump, swim, climb, and craft at +6 each. Add +2 to the physical tasks. Jump, Swim, Climb +8, Craft +6.
Feats: He will have 5+3+1 = 9 if human. Pick a feat chain plus focus and specialization. I'll say power attack, cleave, great cleave, sunder, weapon focus, and weapon specialization. Plus he has room for a few more, assume they aren't relevant.
HP: Average, +2 per level from con => 67 hp
There. In less than a minute, I have a playable character, no books. It could have been quicker if I knew skills weren't going to be relevant. The fact that the system works around some basic rules regarding skills, etc, makes it rather easy.

Also, the DMG has quick NPCs of all classes in the PHB.

One idea I've thought of is to map out character progressions, for example, suppose you wanted a great horse fighter, if its mapped out as n levels of fighter with these feats etc then it'll make the whole job easier.

Again, the DMG has a basic version of this. All you would really have to do is take the stock NPCs and tweak their feats.

 

[Lord Vangarel]

KDLadage,

I've looked at the npc generator in more detail and on initial impressions think great, but they don't do enough. Now I know this should probably be in another thread but they don't allow me to make enough selections. What would be great would be a level by level generator, or one where I can make choices.

I guess what I am thinking is mapping out certain archetypes for the campaign and then been able to just select one as required.

Also the generators aren't in front of me at the game table, I want something that can be almost a printed book of npcs specific to my game. Oh well, guess I'm just going to have to spend some time generating it all.

 

[SableWyvern]

I discovered this problem over the weekend, in my second session. The party came up against a duergar Ftr5 and War5. It was an effort working out their attack bonuses, and moreso what other useful feats they might have (I wasn't about to throw XP the party without making their opposition capable of fighting at their best).

I think most of the basic single classed NPCs will become pretty easy to design on the fly with a bit more experience though (I did reasonably well as it was).

A bigger problem for me personally is the large amount of work that goes into prepared NPCs.

The Fists of Hextor are featuring as a major adversary in my campaign, and I am determined to give them the capabilities and versatitility they deserve.

Which means, in order to work out some stat blocks, I've divided them into 4 power levels, covering within each Ftr/Fist, Rgr/Fist, Mnk/Fist, Clr/Fist, Wiz/Fist, etc... Plus racial mods. For the sake of lowering my workload, there are no Fists with more than one core class except for a few major NPCs.

That's more work than I've come across in any other system. I think that it will prove worthwhile, but its still a pain.

 

[Lord Vangarel]

Psion,

Your memory must be better than mine but still this took you a minute and I'd assume some written notes. This emphasises my gripe, the players know that this isn't a prepared npc - they've just seen you writing and stop the flow of the game while you think. What was nice in previous editions was that you didn't have to stop you could just wing it without not thinking something through. The players never guessed it wasn't prepared and so didn't know that it wasn't part of the story. 3E doesn't let you do that.

Also what about prestige classes, I can just about remember the core classes, feats, and skills, but once you add in all the prestige classes, additional feats, etc it becomes very difficult. I know I don't have to use them but if the I allow the players to then it's only fair the npcs can as well.

SableWyvern,

I agree, the system requires a lot of prep work to do it justice, work I mostly don't really like having to do. It is worth it if you spend the time doing it and the campaign benefits as a result but previous editions made the job of winging it simpler.


I guess what I'm really after is someone who has done all this work already. I don't suppose anyone knows of a site anywhere where loads of this stuff is mapped out?

 

[SableWyvern]

NPC Generator

Not too impressed with Mr Buck.

A trial run gave me a Wiz13 with 13 in Int. That might be forgiveable, except he had 15 Con.