Anyone else miss Dispel Magic?

[malraux]

Polymorph fits certain types of magic users, but not necessarily every type of magic user should be able to use it. The wizard in the PH I seems to be a blasting type magic user. With that, the ability to change into other animals doesn't fit the "theme", except in older versions of the game where the theme of the mage was the ability to do everything cool with magic. Bring a version of polymorph/shape change back, but build a class around the idea of changing shape.

 

[Cadfan]

No; a particular implementation of the spell did. That doesn't mean you must remove the concept completely. (And having a handful of spells which turn you into very specific forms isn't really the same concept as freeform shapeshifting.)

No, freeform shapeshifting breaks the game. It breaks the game because suddenly all monsters ever written, ever, have to be written to be compatible with one lousy spell. And then it breaks the game again at the gaming table by giving one player a license to search through the monster manual like its a menu, and then spend the time necessary to calculate out his new stats.

 

[JohnSnow]

We're talking about wizards being able to change into things or cancel others' spells. Very basic, archetypal stuff. You can see a polymorph spell in Willow, The Sword in the Stone, Spirited Away, and the Odyssey. Simply removing them from the game is an admission of defeat. Somehow, generations of D&D players have muddled along, but the D&D 4e design team can't figure out how to deal with a fairly straightforward effect.

If you want to call that a sacred cow, well, moo. Wizards should be able to polymorph; any D&D that lacks that is worse than all versions of D&D that don't.

Which is why Razell in Willow immediately shifted back into her own form. Oh wait, she didn't. Then it must be why Bavmorda turned everyone in the army into a different harmless creature - oh, wait, no, they all became pigs.

It's why Merlin and Mimm in the Sword in the Stone turned into literally every creature under the sun. Oh wait, they didn't.

The Odyssey? Again, Circe turned them all into swine.

There are countless other examples. Most of them could be solved by tagging various forms to spells of different levels. You shouldn't be able to use a low-mid level spell to turn into any creature. There's a problem when (to use 3e terminology) one of the most powerful tools a 15th-level wizard has is his 4th-level polymorph spell.

For example, after alter self (which would allow you to assume the appearance of any humanoid, you might gain separate spells which let you assume a series of related forms. For example, you might have a utility spell at, say, 6th level that let you turn into any number of small unobtrusive four-footed animals (cat, fox, raccoon...). Or you might get a combat spell that lets you turn into a predatory animal with hit dice equal to your own.

Most fictional wizards have signature forms. We don't see them turning into any and every creature - they usually have "favorites." It would be perfectly feasible to make wizards pick those forms when they pick their spells. Like the choice of a familiar, it's permanent until changed. So whenever you assume your "bird" form, you're, say, a peregrine falcon. You want to be a sparrow? Sorry, that's a spell.

And truthfully, most wizardly transformations are probably better handled as rituals anyway.

 

[FadedC]

No, freeform shapeshifting breaks the game. It breaks the game because suddenly all monsters ever written, ever, have to be written to be compatible with one lousy spell. And then it breaks the game again at the gaming table by giving one player a license to search through the monster manual like its a menu, and then spend the time necessary to calculate out his new stats.

Just wanted to support Cad's point here. Not only was freeform polymorph slow and clunky and confusing, but it required every monster to be designed with "what if a player turns into this" in mind (which of course they weren't causing the spell to be overpowered). The PHB 2 druid's shapeshift powers are the closest we should see to freeform shapeshifting....shapes that are based on archetypes rather then monster stats.

 

[Umbran]

Gutting and changing mechanics so drastically is not cowardly at all, as they are sure to get flack from the crowd that says "Don't slaughter our sacred cows, no matter what decision you make if it's different than my opinion you're wrong."

Flack from that crowd is not something to instill fear.

Flack from the crowd that can marshal real, reasoned, polite arguments is something to fear - and there are more of them around here than anything else.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

If you want to call that a sacred cow, well, moo. Wizards should be able to polymorph; any D&D that lacks that is worse than all versions of D&D that don't.

I love when you don't have to even reductio to find the ad absurdum.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

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[lukelightning]

Back to dispel magic:

It seems to me that it is lacking one-third of its function. It can get rid of conjurations and zones, but what about harmful spells such as charms, curses, etc.? Heck, what about buffing spells?

I presume they've covered this with other spells (break enchantment, et. al.), but it seems weird that you can't dispel the magic of a spell that's cast on a person.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I love when you don't have to even reductio to find the ad absurdum.

Cut the one-liner snarkiness please CG, we're seeing too much of it at the moment.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

It's why Merlin and Mimm in the Sword in the Stone turned into literally every creature under the sun. Oh wait, they didn't.

They didn't? Really? I read that book probably more than two decades ago but I remember exciting multi-form shapeshifting like Hercules wrestling with Proteus, do I misremember?

Ged, who is more archetypical than pretty much any wizard other than Merlin and Gandalf, was certainly a capable, rapid, shapeshifter.

So I'd have to concur with those who say that shapeshifting is fundamental to the magic of the "wise man", to the Wizard, the Shaman, the Druid.

However, I think the real problem with both sides on this argument is that we fundamentally don't know if any of the spells being discussed are in 4E in a meaningful way. Counterspell could be out or in, implemented cool-ly or idiotically, we just don't know. Similarly, many intelligent suggestions for good, workable implementations of Polymorph, whether with specific forms with specific effects, or as a ritual spell, or what-have-you. All that's cool, and demonstrates imagination, but we have no idea if that's actually in the game.

At this stage, given the info WotC has released the general style/tenor of 4E (that's actually pretty apparent), I'm guessing, and it's just a guess, that Wizard cannot in any meaningful way "shapeshift". They may be able to transform others, but themselves? I'll be surprised. Further, I don't think we'll see any particularly cool, broad, or ritual-based shapeshifting. Hopefully I'm horribly wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.